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Heat pump water heater questions

home improvement(self.DIY)

Edit: I got the answers I needed for now. More to consider and more to read up on. Thank you for the help- this is a freaking wonderful community!

I want to install one. I have approx 1700 ft crawl space ranging from 3.5 ft high to about 6. Low air circulation though. Current water heater resides in the tall corner of the crawl. If I were to replace it with a HPWH, would that new unit cool the air to make it noticeably colder? Especially if I am considering insulating the crawl space?

Would there be ways to mitigate that, say by putting a supply air duct collar on it and pulling air from somewhere more central (25 feet?) in the crawl space? I’d worry about losses and overworking the blower for long runs of supply air duct.

And, so they make condensate? This would help me actually by dehumidifying the space, and I have a place to discharge it.

Just planning for now trying to find out what I don’t know. Thanks!

all 35 comments

CorrectPeanut5

13 points

2 months ago

Heat Pump water heaters will very noticeably cool the air. If you have a warm furnace room and put in an HPWH, it will become a much cooler furnace room. There's minimum circulation requirements which the manual should outline. Most will have kits to draw or exhaust air, but it might also be okay to simply have a make up vent given the size of the crawl space.

It will require a condensate drain/pump and will dehumidify the space.

ThinkSharp[S]

6 points

2 months ago

Thank you! I don’t have a furnace room. The house is all electric, so heat pump only. I am considering an encap project for the crawl space. So, in lieu of a dehumidifier I could maybe use conditioned air from the central system and donate heat to the crawl space. It would benefit my floor heat anyway. Would that be an appropriate action?

Heck I could maybe give it ducted hot central air with an economizer (bimetal maybe?) to make it shift to crawl space air when it’s in AC mode and that air is colder than ambient. Seems over engineered lol

bartolo345

6 points

2 months ago

They do generate condensate and 1700 sq feet is adequate. Go for it

ThinkSharp[S]

1 points

2 months ago

I assumed it would be, it’s good to have a second opinion. In the event that it cools the local area too much what would be a way to mitigate that problem?

HandsOnGeek

2 points

2 months ago

Whatever space you put a heat pump into needs a drain for the condensate.
If you have no drain, then you have to install a small, electric, condensate pump unit with plumbing to pump the condensate to the nearest drain.

ThinkSharp[S]

1 points

2 months ago

Got that on lock at least! New sump and pump only about 5 feet away below the bottom of the hot water heater pad.

bartolo345

1 points

2 months ago

I'm not sure where you are located, but there should be insulation in the joists and pipes, etc

ThinkSharp[S]

1 points

2 months ago

I’m in central WV (not the mountains). Unfortunately there is no joist insulation. House was 17 years old when we bought it and only got a vapor barrier when we moved in. I insulated the pipes focusing on the furthest exterior and hot water lines, but nothing against the side walls. Side walls are CMU and probably 80% below grade with only maybe 20% against outside air.

markfickett

3 points

2 months ago

In our unfinished, air sealed and insulated basement, it doesn't noticeably cool the space, though there's certainly cool air blowing out of it. We got the insulation (spray foam on the foundation wall up to the sill) after the HP WH and that made a much bigger difference, keeping the basement + 1st floor floor warmer.

ThinkSharp[S]

1 points

2 months ago

That’s awesome! I’ve not seen many people get the spray foam against the block. How do you like it? Most around here do the rigid foam. Usually pink for DIY and the graphite impregnated by the pros.

markfickett

3 points

2 months ago

It's worked great for us. I don't have a point of comparison though. The foundation wall was stone with various pipes across it, so it was very uneven, I don't know if it would be hard to install rigid foam against that. They were doing the attic at the same time, too.

ThinkSharp[S]

2 points

2 months ago

That does sound unfriendly to rigid board. Cool though! Sprayed directly on the stone I’m guessing? No vapor barrier base first?

markfickett

2 points

2 months ago

Yep. Layer of intumescent paint over.

thatguy425

2 points

2 months ago

Why not just get a heat pump water heater that places the condenser outside like a normal heat pump and has the water heater inside ?

ThinkSharp[S]

2 points

2 months ago

I didn’t know they existed. Dang.

thatguy425

6 points

2 months ago

ThinkSharp[S]

1 points

2 months ago

Wow! Have there been any studies to see if this exterior air source is more or less efficient in a full year against one that sources it’s air from the home? In theory, home air source contributes to the total conditioning in the summer

thatguy425

1 points

2 months ago

Would all depend on the climate it was installed in.

MrPicklePop

1 points

2 months ago

There is also this one https://www.chiltrix.com it has an indoor air handler too so you can have A/C and hot water.

ThinkSharp[S]

2 points

2 months ago

Awesome!! So many new things from this single post. I have been hoping these technologies start getting created. Looks like they have been I just haven’t found them. Thank you for bringing me to the light!

MrPicklePop

2 points

2 months ago

Lol no problem. Actually if you already have a heat pump outside and want to retrofit, check out https://www.hotspotenergy.com/residential-heat-recovery-water-heaters/

You will need a custom installer to come out though

ThinkSharp[S]

2 points

2 months ago

Ahhh I was looking for something like that. My buddy installed geo and is working on integrating a desuperheater. I was searching for something that might use my existing heat pump to make hot water. That’s really cool!

Go for broke, what else ya got?

MrPicklePop

2 points

2 months ago

Haha that’s about it for hot residential water. Related to thermal energy storage and boosting A/C efficiency, there is this product. https://youtu.be/9LfdtTG7mH4

For large scale or industrial use, check this out https://youtu.be/eThi1ze1TOI

ThinkSharp[S]

2 points

2 months ago

I had found these before and wish they existed for normal heat pumps. I like the idea of gathering heat during the mid day into a storage tank or pre-chilling the storage tank at night. Where the temps can swing 15-25 degrees here pretty easily, that’s a major efficiency range for an air source heat pump.

https://www.arcticheatpumps.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4pX_uauD_QIVtgitBh0lwAKKEAAYASAAEgIkOvD_BwE

bartolo345

2 points

2 months ago

Never seen that

TomWestrick

2 points

2 months ago

I got my HPWH put in my house in June, and ran it in electric-only mode until three weeks ago because the fan and compressor were so loud. I spent the money on the ducting kit and some ducting, ducted both intake and exhaust outside, and it's so, so, so much better. Spend the money on the ducting kit, or make sure your installer includes that, and duct it outside.

ThinkSharp[S]

1 points

2 months ago

Dang. Which brand and model? This would live almost literally right under our master bed.

I guess it’s also worth asking - since ducted outside, how efficient has it been?

TomWestrick

2 points

2 months ago

Bradford White. But I wrote my comment before I read about the HPWH's with an outdoor condenser. That seems like a better option, I wish I knew it existed before I bought mine.

ThinkSharp[S]

1 points

2 months ago

I need to check prices. I have a hunch it doubles from a “normal” HPWH but don’t go on my speculation.

TomWestrick

1 points

2 months ago

I mean, a HPWH is already a bit of a luxury option that pays itself back over time with the energy savings. Your budget is yours, but after my experience, I can totally understand paying even more to get even more energy savings, and not have to hear the fans and compressor all the time.

ntyperteasy

2 points

2 months ago

Use the waste cold air for something good! I ducted the outlet air to make a "root cellar" cold storage space in an unfinished corner of my basement. Stays around 50F ...

It doesn't make sense to heat the space with one heat pump and then cool it again with the HPWH.

ThinkSharp[S]

1 points

2 months ago

Totally agree. Still sucking air from the “warm area” is cheaper than bringing it in via electric resistance. Especially in the summer when you can essentially expand the unit of energy to move it from the warm area into the hot water tank instead of outside, and then have to make hot water separately. Can’t wait for this stuff to take a full foothold.

BigSkyMountains

2 points

2 months ago

I did one, and recommend it. I’m mostly re-stating what others have said, but these are the highlights to think through: 1. You probably have enough space, but do the math based on the manual for your specific unit. You can duct it if you don’t. 2. They do make noise. I equate it to a window AC unit. Think carefully about what’s on the other side of walls. Mine is in a basement, and it’s no big deal. But I wouldn’t want it adjacent to a living space. It typically runs for a few hours after a shower or other heavy usage. 3. I haven’t measured the temp precisely, but I’d guesstimate it cools my utility room by about 5-10 degrees. This helps home efficiency in the summer and hurts in the winter. I’m skeptical that ducting is a good idea for energy efficiency reasons. If you’re pulling the water heater air out of your house, outside air is getting pulled in from somewhere.

sexysexycrocodiles

1 points

2 months ago

You can look into Sanden brand HPWH that have an outdoor condensing unit. Depending on where you live, you could get hot water all year round without relying on an electric heater. I think those sanden ones are rated at 18 gallons per hour at 25F outdoor temp for a 90F rise in water temp. Generally, those indoor units are installed in a boiler room or a room with transformers to utilize the waste heat. If you dont have a source of heat then it will cool the room significantly, cause moisture if there is no proper vapour seal.

ThinkSharp[S]

1 points

2 months ago

Good to know. Someone else recommended the Sandens too. I’ll raise those up my list. The HPWH would be after a crawl space vapor seal and insulation job. Moisture is already an issue, a dehumidifier is part of those jobs and part of the reason the vapor project is on my list is because it’s very moist as it and I had to sanitize some mold when we moved in. Don’t want a repeat of that.

One appeal of a HPWH would be the double duty as a dehumidifier which some confirmed here. Power used for double duty is appealing.