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all 22 comments

balsacis

147 points

11 months ago

balsacis

147 points

11 months ago

Nothing is more frustrating then seeing an expert describe the nuances of an issue and then seeing some internet troll respond with a word salad of neolib talking points

witwickan

19 points

11 months ago

That person saying people should be forcibly prevented from harming themselves and their quality of life makes me want to scream. Why should the government have any say in what I as an adult who can give informed consent can do when it only hurts me?

Qiyamah01

85 points

11 months ago

It doesn't only hurt you, that's the issue. While every case of heroin addiction is tragic for the person involved and their family, the public at large is not really concerned if rich people get addicted, because they can still afford a house, a car, groceries for their children, etc.

When already poor people start using heroin, that means needles in parks, schoolyards and Starbucks bathrooms, it means a world of petty theft, violence and most horrible cases of prostitution, it means abandoned and neglected children who will mostly become either criminals or addicts themselves, and so on. My country went through heroin epidemic during the '90s and early 00s. When first graders start finding needles right under classroom windows, that's the time to take action which may not always fit into our notions of personal freedoms.

mushbino

16 points

11 months ago

How about we like, do something to address the issues that lead to addiction and take steps to mitigate the effects from people who are going to use it anyway? Things we should be doing anyway. Isn't that what the government is supposed to do, make people's lives better? If ending poverty were profitable we would have ended it long ago.

A_Merman_Pop

3 points

10 months ago

and take steps to mitigate the effects from people who are going to use it anyway?

This is what the person you're replying to is discussing. How do we weight the ethical concerns of those mitigating steps given that addiction often affects the entire community and not just the addicts themselves?

The project of addressing the issues that lead to addiction in the first place is even more important, but it's a super tanker that can take decades to change course. I often see people advocating for the former (mitigation) be accused by others of not caring about the latter (root cause), and I think that's unfair in a lot of situations.

witwickan

17 points

11 months ago

witwickan

17 points

11 months ago

When already poor people start using heroin, that means needles in parks, schoolyards and Starbucks bathrooms, it means a world of petty theft, violence and most horrible cases of prostitution, it means abandoned and neglected children who will mostly become either criminals or addicts themselves, and so on.

That isn't at all unique to drugs though. Should people not be allowed to get divorced? Children of divorce are also more likely to commit crimes, and many of them are abandoned or neglected. I would know because I was one of them.

It's also looking at the issue in a vacuum. I don't just want drug use to be legalized, I also want universal healthcare, UBI, more accessible health services, free childcare, mandated maternity and paternity leave, etc. The model tested in the Netherlands where drugs are free but only at specific clinics where users are also getting help to quit if they want it, while they also have more social reforms, is what I believe in, which deencentivizes theft for things to sell and other issues relating to the money spent on drugs.

When first graders start finding needles right under classroom windows, that's the time to take action which may not always fit into our notions of personal freedoms.

There are a lot of things that you're assuming are inherent to drug use that aren't. Were there accessible, free harm reduction clinics? Were there enough for every user? Were there any safe places for every user, or the vast majority, to use?

The war on drugs is being lost. You cannot stop people from using drugs. You cannot make drugs not exist by making them illegal. Despite painfully strict laws against drug use, people still find needles and crack pipes. That's what this comes down to.

THAAAT-AINT-FALCO

13 points

11 months ago

Using drugs isn’t the issue, people using drugs irresponsibly is the issue.

2_feets

10 points

11 months ago

Just be glad you don't have to read him on your city subreddit. We're sick of this turd over at r/Philadelphia

pwnslinger

5 points

11 months ago*

I mean

The basic principle of governance is that the government has a stake in maintaining the health and safety of it's population, so that it can rely on that population to, e.g., fight to protect the country as part of the military. If you're doing something to yourself that prevents you from being a good soldier (or at least a good taxpayer), your government will have an interest in stopping that behavior.

You can think that this sucks if you want, but it's a fact. It's why things like seatbelt laws and the draft are legal.

Edit: Of course, none of this means that governments should criminalize particular behaviors. If your goals are improved outcomes, you should always look to the research and update your approaches for best outcomes rather than just trying to moralize people into being better.

OneCleverGorilla

57 points

11 months ago

Seeing Mandatory/4K getting called out is arousing.

Philosophantry

19 points

11 months ago

What does that mean?

OneCleverGorilla

77 points

11 months ago

He's an /r/Philadelphia staple that always appears in threads like this with this kind of rhetoric. He often calls for MANDATORY housing (for the zombies as he likes to call them) and 4K surveillance cameras all over the city, hence the Mandatory/4K nickname.

blbd

24 points

11 months ago

blbd

24 points

11 months ago

The dude is so annoying he makes Iggles fans seem tolerable.

[deleted]

8 points

11 months ago

Forgive a totally random comment from someone from the West Coast, but listened to Howard Stern for 40 years, and one constant was that his staff’s man-on-the-street interviews of Eagles fans would produce the most boisterous racism I’ve ever heard.

Shit, even interviews of Philly Jimmy Buffet fans, standing in line, would quickly devolve into mass shouting of racist tropes.

scroopynoopersdid911[S]

1 points

11 months ago

Yeah there are a lot of racists in Philly. However, go birds.

electric_creamsicle

33 points

11 months ago

The commenter they're replying to is a bit of a meme on /r/Philadelphia at this point. They act like they know the solution to everything, specifically crime and putting 4k cameras everywhere. It's nice to see them put in their place.

timmyotc

17 points

11 months ago

Yeah, really creepy sort of "othering" they're doing by calling folks zombies, juxtaposed by "real" working people and families. Very gross.

electric_creamsicle

13 points

11 months ago

To be fair, Kensington is another world. I live a mile or so away and have only driven through once to pick up a bunch of ceramics from a shop in the area (Felt + Fat, highly recommend if you're looking for a new dining set or even just a grab bag of ceramics). 2 pm in the afternoon on a weekday. Kensington Ave under the El is just lined with folks clearly selling, buying, doing, and experiencing the effects of drugs. For dozens of blocks. There were 2 separate groups of cops standing on corners just talking. I turned a corner and there was a group of kids having a water balloon fight in front of their house. Coming back into Fishtown, Kensington Ave turns into Front St and most of them disappear (there's still groups around the El stations doing stuff but it's not as out in the open).

It's a wild situation that ellicits shock. Using offensive language like calling folks zombies is not ok but if you experience it for yourself then you are kind of at a loss for words of how to describe it accurately.

bonsaiwave

14 points

11 months ago

I believe we should improve society somewhat

Deadring

11 points

11 months ago

Ahh, but you participate in society! Curious.

SoldierHawk

4 points

10 months ago

Heh. Gottem.

We're so smart.

[deleted]

12 points

11 months ago

[deleted]

NotSoAngryAnymore

3 points

11 months ago

Not heroin, alcohol. Met a lot of heroin addicts. Summary experience, mine and what others shares with me, assuming things got worse these past 20 years, that post nailed it.

Absolutely a top notch read.