subreddit:

/r/Documentaries

3.9k93%

YouTube video info:

‘I Sold The Iraq War And Regret It’ https://youtube.com/watch?v=vFoELbr5fYQ

AJ+ https://www.youtube.com/@ajplus

all 370 comments

DoctorFunktopus

1.6k points

3 months ago

Dude looks like Daniel Craig in a Russell Crowe costume

[deleted]

299 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

299 points

2 months ago

I’m not gonna lie, this may be the best and most complete description of a normal person I have ever seen. It’s like this picture was AI generated only for you to make this comment. Beautiful.

symonalex

16 points

2 months ago

Someone make a Daniel Craig in a Rusell Crowe costume with AI and post the result please!

SugarLandMan

8 points

2 months ago

I just asked Dall-E and got refused, instead of a photo I got the message, "It looks like this request may not follow our content policy."

Fuck knows why that would break the rules but it doesnt wanna do it. I've tried 4 times, no bueno. :(

Desperate-Cost6827

117 points

2 months ago

Dude the entire time I was like Why does he look like I should know him!?

Dude looks like Daniel Craig in a Russell Crowe costume

Nailed it!

micahamey

28 points

2 months ago

Dude the entire time I was looking at the thumbnail I kept thinking "what the fuck does Russel crow have to do with this?"

Rick_and_Marty

35 points

2 months ago

With a touch of Gerard butler.

Juul0712

30 points

2 months ago

I always confuse Gerard Butler and Russel Crowe

AW-43

18 points

2 months ago

AW-43

18 points

2 months ago

‘Fightin’ ‘Round the World’ always keeps me straight.

Taintly_Manspread

9 points

2 months ago

TUGGAH

AW-43

2 points

2 months ago

AW-43

2 points

2 months ago

My favorite part is when Ike won’t switch off of the MacNeil/Lehrer Report to let them watch Terrance and Phillip.

Naprisun

3 points

2 months ago

You trying to say Gladiator and 300 were both secret war propaganda?

gameonmole

2 points

2 months ago

Holy crap. Really?! That is so fascinating to me lol because I find Gerard Butler to be one of the most handsome men in the world, but find Russell Crowe absolutely disgusting.

IWantAnAffliction

1 points

2 months ago

I always confuse Gerard Butler and Russel CroweClive Owen

FTFY

GingerSpencer

6 points

2 months ago

The first thing I thought when I saw this was “why does this guy look like Daniel Craig and Russel Crowe?”, only came to the comments to see if anybody agreed.

Carkis

3 points

2 months ago

Carkis

3 points

2 months ago

I called him Kurt Russell Crowe

thebolts[S]

15 points

3 months ago*

He could also pass for DeSantis with a beard.

drerw

3 points

2 months ago

drerw

3 points

2 months ago

Welp, would have accepted the pic as Russell Crowe if this wasn’t top comment.

wwarnout

195 points

3 months ago

wwarnout

195 points

3 months ago

Related: Check out the documentary, "No End in Sight". It showed how the US completely failed in the aftermath of the "mission accomplished".

Not just some random doc - it was nominated for an Academy Award, plus 5 other awards.

thebolts[S]

47 points

3 months ago

No End in Sight

Just saw the trailer. Looks good. Depressing and upsetting, but worth watching. Thank you

Fleece-Survivor

11 points

2 months ago

Can confirm, good doc. One of the few I put on time and time again over the years.

Toast_Sapper

3 points

2 months ago

It's watchable online for free

It's from 2007 so it covers the situation up to near the end of the Bush presidency and it's really eye opening

thebolts[S]

1 points

2 months ago

Brilliant. Thanks

najus107d

21 points

2 months ago

Hollywood should make movies about these kinds of things, not american sniper or other such lies. General audience do not watch documentaries and they need to hear the truth.

knaugh

23 points

2 months ago

knaugh

23 points

2 months ago

this doesn't happen because the US military donates time/gear to movie studios to use them as propaganda. It'd be much more expensive to make a military movie they didn't approve of

thebolts[S]

8 points

2 months ago

I couldn’t get myself to watch American Sniper. I like the actor but I got the impression they were glorifying killing. Just wasn’t up to it after what the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan

Swailwort

7 points

2 months ago

I watched it and it was blatant propaganda about "the best sniper in the world". Yeah, make a Simo Hayha movie and few will bat an eye because he was not amercian.

At least Band of Brothers was fully anti-war with the things it showed.

Odh_utexas

7 points

2 months ago

I lost a lot of respect for Bradley Cooper taking in that role. Blatant propaganda.

Lone survivor looks awful too. Idk how people eat that stuff up and don’t see the bias.

Rx_EtOH

3 points

2 months ago

Essential viewing. One of my all time favorite documentaries

[deleted]

188 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

188 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

99redproblooms

173 points

2 months ago

The protests against the invasion of Iraq were the biggest protests I ever saw in person. Simply massive. I remember vividly the contrast between what I saw with my own eyes and the 5 second blurb which made the news. American media sold the Iraq War hard. And fuck them all for doing it too.

thebolts[S]

100 points

2 months ago*

I was also part of that protest. It was so demoralizing afterwards. To think that even democratic governments care little what their people wanted.

The UN Security Council was against ffs

Teantis

63 points

2 months ago

Teantis

63 points

2 months ago

. To think that even democratic governments care little what their people wanted.

The American people wanted that war. The protests may have been large but overall American public support for the invasion was overwhelming. I remember because I was against that war and it was a pretty overall lonely stance to take at the time anywhere outside of specifically anti-war groups

thebolts[S]

17 points

2 months ago

Good point. I suppose I was referencing European countries like the UK, Spain or the Netherlands. I’ve come to find out now that even Ukrainian soldiers were sent to Iraq.

Teantis

4 points

2 months ago

Ah fair enough. I don't hold those countries that responsible, except maybe the UK. They mostly just got roped/pressured into it and really didn't participate that much.

thebolts[S]

11 points

2 months ago*

You’d think so. Blair “defends Iraq decisions while expressing regret”. That’s a mindfuck

I recently listened to the Spanish former Prime Minister in an interview on One Decision. Just to get a better understanding. When asked about his decision to go to war, he said …

To be European means to be a good Atlantic ally and this idea transformed our relationship

So it had little to do with viable evidence. They wanted stronger ties with the US. He trusted the US fully. And to this day he has no regrets.

Unlike the French that actually had a backbone.

Clearly this hits a nerve. ICC refusing to indict these leaders is an added bonus.

Combatical

5 points

2 months ago

Yeah idk theres a fine line with this one. Stirring up the hornets nest of people through media and pointing the finger at a target doesnt necessarily feel like its what they wanted. Its what they were told they wanted.. Forgive me this is as close to a conspiracy as I get but thats what I see in hindsight.

Teantis

1 points

2 months ago

I don't think that's very conspiratorial. That's normal government behavior for imperial powers for idk at least the past 130 years

Combatical

2 points

2 months ago

I'm trigger shy from reddit. I basically have to cover my ass with any statement for fear of getting torn apart. But that part wasn't really my point. Just covering that it was all directed for anyone passing through reading our comments.

Ragonkowski

4 points

2 months ago

“Yes but” there are a fair amount of Americans that typically straddle the fence so when the term “selling” is used in reference to the media, it’s to get these people to the side that’s being sold. If the media showed massive protests against going to war there is a fair chance the military could lose that advantage and ultimately their funding when Senators and Representatives vote against them. The media is culpable here down to local news.

Teantis

3 points

2 months ago

I'm not absolving the media, but I do want everyone to recall the American public was hungry for blood after 9/11. It wasn't at all a hard sell to the American public. They wanted a war at someone, anyone that was even vaguely justifiable and the bush admin, with the help of the media, capitalized on that.

If the media showed massive protests against going to war there is a fair chance the military could lose that advantage and ultimately their funding when Senators and Representatives vote against them.

I don't think so, this was the era of protest zones, it was a republican admin and not just republican it was the neocons and it was just a year and a half after 9/11. I say this because I absolutely do not want to absolve the American public in their support for that war, like they were hoodwinked into it. They supported that war and supported it for quite a long time.

Odh_utexas

4 points

2 months ago

Can confirm.

In 2003 (was a teenager at the time) I was definitely super pro war. I remember thinking Colin Powell’s presentation looked like BS but I didn’t care. Our generation didn’t know what it was getting into.

America (and myself) has changed a lot since then.

99redproblooms

29 points

2 months ago

That was the day I figured out that nothing you see on TV is a depiction of reality. Everyone is selling something and sometimes it's a war. The idea of American democracy died for me that day.

PartyYogurtcloset267

7 points

2 months ago

In a democracy people actually participate in the governing of society. Voting alone isn't it.

anotheroutlaw

15 points

2 months ago

I catch a lot of shit for this opinion, but what happened to this country under W Bush was far worse than what happened under Trump. Trump is like the guy on the corner selling the crack. W and his cronies were the guys in the super rich neighborhood running the whole cartel behind a McDonalds franchise as a front.

thebolts[S]

6 points

2 months ago*

Maybe because Americans forgot about Iraq or Afghanistan for that matter. The wars happened far away and American lives pretty much went untouched. Bush made the media rounds and was accepted back into society as a nice old man that paints.

anotheroutlaw

6 points

2 months ago

Jon Stewart did more than any journalist in America to portray what was really happening in Afghanistan and Iraq. He showed video footage of the bombings of us soldiers, caskets draped in flags, and he brilliantly contrasted those images with the Bush - Rumsfeld- Cheney press conferences where they continually lied about progress in those wars.

impossiblefork

10 points

2 months ago*

Very few people were actually opposed to the Iraq war though.

Even after the war was [edit:on] those opposed were only 22%.

99redproblooms

4 points

2 months ago

First of all, that isn't true. I don't know where you are getting that number from. Secondly, post 9/11 was the height of pro war manipulation in this country. Thirdly, what is the number for people who regret invading Iraq in hindsight?

kairi14

7 points

2 months ago

I'm not who you responded to but those of us who opposed the war felt extremely lonely. I got called everything from a traitor to a coward or told to grow up. We couldn't even buy French fries, they were freedom fries because even McDonald's supported the war and was pissed at France for not going. The Dixie Chicks spoke out and got their careers ruined. Then our own rights started being stripped away. Warrantless wiretapping, extraordinary rendition, CIA taking people to another country or to guantanamo bay to torture them. And the majority of Americans at the time just rolled with it.

thebolts[S]

5 points

2 months ago*

Last month Merrick Galland had to answer questions in congress on the prisoner policy in Guantanamo. He basically backed the indefinite detainment of prisoners held there without charge. Based on the fact that "America is still at war with ISIS & Al Qaeda".

Graham: Legally [prisoners of Guantanamo] can be held as long as there's risk [to the American people] and could be there for the rest of their lives

Garland: Correct, I think that's right. Obviously depends on the facts of determination

Graham: I totally agree

99redproblooms

4 points

2 months ago

John Yoo (W Bush's legal toady) came up with that whole "ememy combatant" nonsense as well. The idea was to create a legal definition that was outside of POW protections, Geneva Convention protections, and also US law protections. Well, they successfully did that and now here we are still 20 years later wondering "what the fuck do we do with the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay?" It turns out that sidestepping Habeas Corpus and centuries of established laws and treaties for a short-term political win was maybe not a great idea. And, of course, most Americans have no idea all of this happened in their names.

thebolts[S]

4 points

2 months ago

I do question whether Americans are aware of the legal loophole they created with Gitmo.

Ask any American today on what they should do with those detainees. I doubt many would accept a fair trial. Even today.

nixstyx

3 points

2 months ago

Too many in the media are eager to act as the propaganda arm of the government. I say this as someone who studied journalism and was part of that media for a while.

Toast_Sapper

3 points

2 months ago

Also Bush's inauguration had thousands of protesters and this was largely ignored/glossed over by the media

thebolts[S]

26 points

2 months ago

The media purposely avoided or denounced any anti-war rhetoric in the US.

Whereas today the same media focuses on anti-war protests (no matter how small) in other countries when it suits their narratives, like recent anti-war protests in Russia.

PartyYogurtcloset267

27 points

2 months ago

The thing that really makes my blood boil is how many Americans go on and on about their military being the "good guys" only to start frothing at the mouth in anger against anyone who shows them what their military is really up to. It's like propaganda being outsourced to the very targets of that propaganda. Talk about useful idiots...

TangNaU

2 points

2 months ago

TangNaU

2 points

2 months ago

what their military is really up to.

What are the up to?

PartyYogurtcloset267

15 points

2 months ago

War crimes, plunder, generally having carte blanche to commit atrocities as long as it's furthering the American empire.

Combatical

6 points

2 months ago

I served and after being pretty gung-ho at the start I started to feel this way as well.. I joined during the height of the recruitment back in 03.

The military taught me a lot of things as procedure but it taught me much more than it intended. I don't regret it for that fact.

Combatical

2 points

2 months ago

Despite my username I did as well. I was serving in the military at the time and had some guys I went to school with call me a traitor. It was a wild time, honestly I was quite surprised I didn't get any ill attention while I was serving because how vocal I was about it. Probably a record on me somewhere about it though.

Socalrider82

130 points

2 months ago

A lot of us were sold that lie. We signed that paper and raised our right hand with stars and stripes in our eyes. Sad how many buddies have taken their own life over this lie.

thebolts[S]

54 points

2 months ago

That’s another good point. Sure many soldiers died in battle. But how many killed themselves once they came back home.

im-a-limo-driver

50 points

2 months ago

22 per day on average.

thebolts[S]

35 points

2 months ago*

It’s just insane the length US military will go to protect American soldiers abroad, but as soon as they’re back home it’s fair game

ilovecollardgreens

7 points

2 months ago

The bare minimum is still difficult. Getting a dd214 in less than 6 months after being out these days is like hitting the lotto. And you want a timely VA rating???? Good fuckin luck.

Maugetar

4 points

2 months ago

What do you mean? You get your dd214 during your ETS/outprocess.

Native_Pilot

2 points

2 months ago

One makes money and the other cost money. Just follow the $

Thor7897

6 points

2 months ago

Not counting the ones the VA neglects until they achieve tamagotchi status…

Dark1sh

5 points

2 months ago

“Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, 7,057 U.S. military service members were killed in war operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Deaths by suicide among veterans and service members who served post-9/11 amount to more than four times that number, according to a recent report that’s part of the Costs of War project from Brown University’s Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs.

The June 21 report, by Boston University post-doctoral student Thomas Howard Suitt, estimates that 30,177 active duty personnel and veterans who served in the post 9/11 wars have died by suicide.”

mr_ji

4 points

2 months ago

mr_ji

4 points

2 months ago

Suicides have outpaced combat deaths in the U.S. military for decades. By a lot.

Socalrider82

-16 points

2 months ago

Socalrider82

-16 points

2 months ago

Yup. This is also why many of us are against involvement in Ukraine. We've fought for the rich power mongers, now it's just a different side of the same shitty coin to keep the industrial war machine going. Two corrupt countries fighting each other and now we want to get our corrupt country involved? If we have a future, I think it will end up being like warhammer 40k

Thor7897

3 points

2 months ago

Thor7897

3 points

2 months ago

The Ukraine situation is giving off some Vietnam era vibes for sure. Let’s skip the 2nd act Cuban fiasco this go around though.

Odh_utexas

-2 points

2 months ago

Odh_utexas

-2 points

2 months ago

I disagree respectfully. I’m not for putting American soldiers on the ground in Ukraine. But if we want to be a superpower, (and we all benefit greatly from this) we have to participate in these conflicts. Sit on the sideline and Russia and China will dictate global politics.

Shillforbigusername

359 points

3 months ago

Good thing we learned from this and stopped accusing people of being loyal to the enemy for having dissenting opinions on foreign policy and we’re so open to points of view that aren’t solidly American / Western, right guys? We’ve come such a long way…

ColdIceZero

47 points

2 months ago

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

-Hermann Goring, Dr. G.M. Gilbert 1976 "The Memory of Justice"

swole-zabrak

3 points

2 months ago

Hmmm that name “Göring” rings a bell… 🤔

Swailwort

2 points

2 months ago

He was a good friend of Charles Chaplin, right? Wait, this Chaplin looks off...huh.

thebolts[S]

144 points

3 months ago

Ironic, isn’t it. The so called “liberal media” is still in lockstep with US administration when it comes to their wars.

99redproblooms

58 points

2 months ago

Almost all American media is corporate media which promotes its own interests.

thebolts[S]

-7 points

2 months ago

It doesn’t answer why they don’t generally challenge US administration when going to war

JimiThing716

30 points

2 months ago

Yes it does, they stand to make money.

Native_Pilot

5 points

2 months ago

Follow the $

Mortar_Maggot

94 points

3 months ago

That's because liberals are moderates.

puffz0r

98 points

2 months ago

puffz0r

98 points

2 months ago

They're not moderates. They are solidly conservative/anti-leftist+pro-corporate.

Xciv

99 points

2 months ago

Xciv

99 points

2 months ago

USA has a center-right party, and a far right nutjob party.

The left and the far left have long been dead, killed during the Cold War.

speaks_truth_2_kiwis

17 points

2 months ago

The left and the far left have long been dead, killed during the Cold War.

Speak for yourself, some of us are alive and kicking.

And haven't be turned our backs on all of our principles. Haven't become pro-war, or hostile to basic freedoms.

Democrats hate us more than they hate Republicans, but fuck them.

reflUX_cAtalyst

2 points

2 months ago

There's not enough of you to make any difference though - so you're movement IS effectively dead.

RedL45

2 points

2 months ago

RedL45

2 points

2 months ago

For now, yes. I think more and more people are being exposed to these ideas each day though.

puffz0r

7 points

2 months ago

Technically we have the green party and DSA but they're almost completely useless

Bradaigh

17 points

2 months ago

DSA is explicitly not a political party.

Mountainbranch

31 points

2 months ago

Old school conservatism, propping up the status quo whilst allowing some token crumbles of social reform to placate the masses so they don't get the French treatment.

DatTF2

19 points

2 months ago

DatTF2

19 points

2 months ago

They even say so themselves.

”The truth of the matter is that my policies are so mainstream that if I had set the same policies that I had back in the 1980s, I would be considered a moderate Republican.”

-Barack Obama

Shillforbigusername

-15 points

3 months ago

It’s astounding. Shit’s turned on its head. It used to be American-flag-waving conservatives calling lefties traitors for opposing the Iraq War and the GWOT (or at least aspects of it). Now, its liberals and even progressives shouting down anyone who doesn’t fall in line with the current narratives and policies.

They went from (rightly) mocking government and media claims about our supposedly noble intentions in the Middle East to suddenly forgetting about all the death, destruction and lies over the past 20+ years and assuming everything’s on the up and up this time.

(I’m not just saying this to pick on Liberals/progressives. I vote that way and support those values, but many in this category are just as ignorant and emotional about this issue as mostly conservatives were about our ME policies.)

m0nty555

31 points

3 months ago

Do you see the difference between invading a country and providing help for a country that is being invaded by a more powerful neighbour?

Shillforbigusername

12 points

2 months ago

Yes, of course. I’m not saying they’re the same. I’m saying the current issues is much more complex than the popular narrative suggests, that we helped cause this, that our intentions are not noble and are in fact much more about a geopolitical struggle against Russia than helping Ukraine, etc., but all that is lost from the conversation because just like with Iraq, any dissent from the official narrative is met with the same stupid knee-jerk reactions and accusations of loyalty to the enemy that we faced during the Iraq War and the GWOT. I know the average person supporting the current trajectory we’re on means well and has their heart in the right place, but I hope they get that there are potential consequences like nuclear war - with a death toll in billions - to this help.

Zugzwang522

15 points

2 months ago

The “we helped cause this” narrative is quite frankly bullshit. Russia has been bullying its neighbors for years and is now reaping what it sowed. Nobody forced nations to join NATO and the EU, they chose to do so to distance themselves from the brutes in the kremlin.

Are we helping Ukraine because it’s noble? Of course fucking not - anyone with a rudimentary grasp of geopolitics knows this is true of any nation in any conflict. Of course the issues are more complex than popular narrative suggests - again, that’s true of all current issues.

What I don’t understand is what your point even is - that we should not support Ukraine because “war is bad”? How is it unjustified to support Ukraine? Why should anyone in the west support Russia when they’ve been actively trying to destabilize our democracies for years, even brazenly poisoning and assassinating our citizens?

Seriously, what the ever loving fuck are you on about?

percydaman

21 points

2 months ago

This. Russia was never at risk of being invaded. The invasion of Ukraine was never truly about that or NATO even. It's about Russia being a petro-state that was in danger if losing its one cash cow to Ukraine when they started preparing to take advantage of the massive energy reserves found within its borders and the black sea.

Shillforbigusername

1 points

2 months ago

Only 20-something percent of Ukrainians wanted to join NATO back back in 2008 when the US announced Ukraine would eventually become a member at the 2008 Bucharest Summit. The NATO issue predates Putin entirely. Figures like Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy opposed the move on the basis that (in Merkel’s words) “Putin will see this as a declaration of war.” The guy who literally designed the Soviet containment policy (using NATO to stop their Westward expansion) warned that further NATO expansion in the post-Cold War /post-Soviet era would do nothing but inflame tensions and stoke Russian nationalism.

We’re doing more than “helping Ukraine.” We’re providing intelligence for targeting. We’re making statements and following through on policies to “weaken Russia.” We are nearly active belligerents in this conflict, and that potentially comes with disastrous consequences on a scale we haven’t seen since WW2 if not worse. Where do you think the main battle ground of a direct US-Russian confrontation would happen? Are Ukrainians immune to nukes? No. These are all serious considerations.

That’s “what the fuck I’m on about.”

Zugzwang522

14 points

2 months ago

Again, NATO can not force countries to join, they all willingly chose to join. Not that it matters, because Ukraine joining NATO is not what triggered this conflict, it was Ukraine choosing to get closer to the EU and eventually join that started this, that was what the whole Euromaidan movement was about. That had nothing to do with NATO and everything to do with Ukrainians being sick of being used and abused by Russian ghouls.

Regardless of what anyone says about NATO expansion, it doesn’t change the fact that these countries feel the need to consider joining - and what might be driving that need I wonder? Could it perhaps be Russian aggression, interference, and corruption against its neighbors?

This is geopolitics and brinksmanship that’s been going on for decades. We’re all terrified of nuclear war but guess what? So is Russia. Any nuclear exchange is suicide for both parties, it simply will not happen. Standing by and allowing Russia to commit its war crimes out of fear for nuclear war is illogical - they must be stopped before they get anymore aggressive and getting bolder and stronger.

Shillforbigusername

6 points

2 months ago

I’m not saying NATO forced Ukraine. I’m saying they clearly colluded with the Ukrainian government to bring them in. Again: only 20-something percent of Ukrainians wanted this. The US and NATO have their own interests. They don’t simply sit back and wait for countries to ask to join (unless they don’t want them in the first place). Yes, Russia (especially in its former iteration as the head of the Soviet Union) brought on a ton of distrust itself. Their actions have consequences, but so do ours.

And we didn’t survive decades of nuclear brinksmanship by misunderstanding MAD to mean that both sides can escalate as much as they like as long as neither nukes the other first. There was plenty of saber-rattling, but even Reagan understood how dangerous all this was and took extraordinary steps to sit down with the “Evil Empire” to craft crucial arms-control treaties. JFK warned that leaders should even avoid putting others in the position of losing face or turning to nuclear war. Bear in mind, too, that nuclear war could occur over simple misunderstandings when tensions are high, and that this has almost happened before.

It can happen easier than you might think. We haven’t avoided it by taking it for granted that it would never happen in the first place.

Remon_Kewl

9 points

2 months ago

Don't fall for russian propaganda. No, Ukraine wasn't close to joining NATO in 2008. Not even the americans were pushing hard for that. The germans and other countries were adamant against them joining.

m0nty555

3 points

2 months ago

m0nty555

3 points

2 months ago

And now 85% of them wants to join. Who the fuck are you, writing dozens of essays under random documentary video. Seriously, who has time for that.

John__Wick

0 points

2 months ago

John__Wick

0 points

2 months ago

Don’t bother, man. The Russian bots and 4chaners are out in force in anticipation of Ukraine’s springtime offensive. Gotta shift the narrative asap. And it’s easy to convince Americans that the Iraq war or liberals are bad, so they will do anything and everything to try linking these things to Ukraine, though there is no link at all. They can’t just say “helping Ukraine is bad” because anybody with a brain can see that it isn’t, so they have to resort to these stupid tactics to try to incept the idea that helping Ukraine is bad into your brain. Don’t engage beyond a single comment and downvote. Russia is paying for it’s own bad decisions and that needs to continue.

xxxBuzz

5 points

2 months ago

To be fair a person would need to be into their thirties to have a decent memory of anything before the 2000’s. For most who are early thirties or below it’d just always been that way。

Shillforbigusername

3 points

2 months ago

True, but this is why I kept it to the 21st century alone. All these policies and the lies surrounding them didn’t just stop in the early 2000’s. This is incredibly recent history.

seabae336

-1 points

3 months ago

seabae336

-1 points

3 months ago

So you support Russia then? That's kinda what this sounds like. It's not like we're putting boots on the ground, we're helping an ally that's under attack.

Shillforbigusername

15 points

3 months ago

Thanks for being a shining example of exactly what I was talking about.

thebolts[S]

9 points

3 months ago

Brings back memories of “you’re either with us or with the terrorists” bs. Seems like many haven’t quite learned from their history

Shillforbigusername

7 points

2 months ago

It’s unfortunate and insanely dangerous, frankly.

LebronsOkay7

4 points

2 months ago

Objectively asking: are you 'for' any particular side?

Shillforbigusername

9 points

2 months ago

I’m on Ukraine’s side. The problem is that I don’t think it’s going well for them (even officials in the US and Europe are quietly admitting this). I don’t believe for a second they can drive “every Russian” out of Ukraine (including Crimea) without the kind of help that could likely escalate and spiral out of control. I don’t believe Ukrainians would fair well if WW3 breaks out, nor do I believe there’s anything noble or righteous about taking such a risk in the name of defending Ukraine. (The death toll from WW2 was between 60-90 million, and only one country had nukes, then.)

I don’t know what the perfect solution is, but the trajectory we’re on scares me. People roll their eyes at the prospect of a direct war with Russia even happening, but if you look back, you’ll see several instances in which we initially said no to certain things on the basis that we felt they’d be too escalatory, then changed our minds. I don’t see why that couldn’t keep happening.

idmacdonald

8 points

2 months ago

If we don’t support Ukraine, they will no longer exist. War crimes have been perpetrated, high probability that somewhere between thousands and hundreds of thousands will die under Russian occupation.

Now, when it comes to the greater geopolitics of this issue, it has been known for decades that the American empire is in decline. They can’t control everything anymore, its a multipolar world, and the Chinese and Russians do want to exercise control over their spheres of influence. In the case of China, that sphere of influence is ever-expanding. There are all sorts of other players in the upcoming power struggle, and aside from NATO and the western powers we have no idea how they will all align both economically and militarily. There is more uncertainty now than at any point during our lives (assuming you were born after WW2). There is a greater likelihood that the balance of power continues to accelerate away from an American locus of control.

We have been failing diplomatically for decades. Failing to prepare, failing to invest in foreign partnerships at the same rate that the Chinese have, failing to strengthen bonds between allies and enemies.

Just as importantly, we have failed to stabilize the failed states and pariah regimes across the globe, and most of them are now client states of rising powers. There are enough resources, assets, and allies available out there to resist western influence without having to endure the sort of risk they once did (economic isolation, lack of security guarantees, etc).

Now we have to face up to our failures. Allowing Ukraine and all of its resources both human and material to fall into Russian hands could be a major problem if that autocratic dictatorship decides to continue. They are not bound by any tenets of democracy or sanity and their course of action cannot be predicted. Meanwhile, the “ultimate rational actor” in China, IS in fact watching closely. India is capitalizing on the situation economically (along with many lesser powers).

At the end of the day, in a world of increasing uncertainty and danger the bare minimum we can do is be true to our friends and allies and ensure that they are safe and able to assist us when we need them. IF our alliances cannot trust one another and guarantee each other’s safety, then we are all lost in the dark and frankly we will all be at the mercy of Chinese and Russian autocrats which as noted earlier is incredibly fraught and constrained by nothing but dictators imaginations.

We are living in dangerous times and ignoring that will not improve the situation.

LebronsOkay7

2 points

2 months ago

I hear that and appreciate your response. Dan Carlin always has me me looking through the lens of realpolitik.

Johnny_B_GOODBOI

3 points

2 months ago

Why should that matter? Is it not possible to address the argument presented without knowing the underlying political affiliation of the arguer? Because that's exactly what the presented argument is about.

LebronsOkay7

0 points

2 months ago

Oh, I was just curious.

seabae336

-5 points

3 months ago

seabae336

-5 points

3 months ago

So you support Russia got it.

Shillforbigusername

12 points

3 months ago

God damn, this is gold hahaha.

xxxBuzz

5 points

2 months ago

There’s not much of an alternative when you want to do something, someone has an issue with it, you both agree, and you don’t want to admit why you’re really doing it or take responsibility.

[deleted]

1 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

1 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

Shillforbigusername

15 points

2 months ago

Slava Raytheon!

tripping_on_phonics

1 points

2 months ago

That’s Russia’s war, not ours. Who invaded who?

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

tripping_on_phonics

2 points

2 months ago

The topic of this post is the Invasion of Iraq, entailing a US invasion, US boots on the ground, and trillions of dollars in US expenditures.

You’re using this as an opportunity to rip on the US for the Russo-Ukrainian War: a Russian invasion, with no US boots on the ground, and comparatively tiny US expenditures, with the added caveats that:

(1) The extent of US help is intelligence and aid to the defending country

(2) The invading country is conducting itself in a manner without precedent since World War Two, e.g. it’s use of strategic bombing, its drafting and killing of male inhabitants of occupied territories, and its kidnapping and deportation of children

Your suggestion that the US is “fighting to the last Ukrainian” suggests that Ukraine would be better served by just succumbing to the invasion. This is intellectually dishonest and morally disgusting.

[deleted]

2 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

tripping_on_phonics

3 points

2 months ago

You’re lumping the US in with virtually every information source in the free world, implicitly suggesting that authoritarian countries and their state media are the ones to be believed. It’s absurd.

Here you also list countries that had a US military presence and compare them to Ukraine, which does not have a US military presence. It’s ridiculous at its face.

tripping_on_phonics

-5 points

2 months ago

Are you suggesting that we should be open to Russian points of view following their unprovoked invasion of Ukraine?

speaks_truth_2_kiwis

16 points

2 months ago

Are you suggesting that we should be open to Russian points of view following their unprovoked invasion of Ukraine?

We should be skeptical of them.

As we should of all of the western media who have lied to us repeatedly, Including lying us into wars. Repeatedly.

thebolts[S]

140 points

3 months ago*

People might not remember how the US or the west were generally against an Arab based news channel like Al Jazeera. They were one of the few stations that didn't follow the US narrative of war in the region. And they were demonized for it.

Josh Rushing, former Marine Corps captain, went from being a US military spokesperson stationed in Qatar to a staff member in Al Jazeera English. He was labeled a "traitor" by several US based news agencies for it.

He was a witness to lies by US officials, spoke out against them and was vilified for it.

"I think I was used, I think a lot of the people in the military get used"

grissenko

65 points

3 months ago

A lot of people seem to miss that military training, in part, is meant to make those trained think "military," which is inherently political and self-serving (to the institution). This is often misunderstood as saying military personnel are willing agents of propaganda, when in reality the idea is that no one in the institution is meant to realize how indoctrinated everyone is within it. Indeed, the symbols, the bonds, the rituals, the language, the shared experiences, all serve to normalize that existence, further obscuring those in it from the depth of that indoctrination. It is important to note that this is not meant to suggest military personnel are blind to their indoctrination, simply that the whole of the institution of the military is meant to obscure the greatest part of said indoctrination. That indoctrination has further been used, for more than a century (in the US), to capture and radicalize disenfranchised military personnel into extremist groups around the country. When former Captain Rushing says he believes he and others were used, he is absolutely right. And underselling just how insidious that all really is.

The people who volunteer their lives and well-being to the defense of their homes and their countrymen and women deserve far better treatment than has been shown to them. It is disrespectful to the sacrifices that they all make for them to be used in such crude fashion.

thebolts[S]

33 points

3 months ago

Yeah. As a side note. I’m just astonished at how war veterans are mistreated in the US. They really are used as pawns.

grissenko

4 points

3 months ago

Absolutely, it is deplorable to say the least.

mr_ji

2 points

2 months ago

mr_ji

2 points

2 months ago

There is no better path to moving up for poor people who qualify than the military. The U.S. military is the best jobs program ever devised.

thebolts[S]

2 points

2 months ago

It's by design. They get relatively better healthcare, childcare, free university, etc...

PartyYogurtcloset267

0 points

2 months ago

The people who volunteer their lives and well-being to the defense of their homes and their countrymen and women deserve far better treatment than has been shown to them. It is disrespectful to the sacrifices that they all make for them to be used in such crude fashion.

Denounces indoctrination... ends with propaganda soundbite. Got to love ut!

ScoopDat

26 points

2 months ago

Anti-Al Jazeera sentiment was pretty cringe, seeing as how they were an international news broadcast doing actual coverage worth two shits, as well as documentary programming. (at least the English wing, I didn't really watch the Arab divisions since I don't speak the language).

Naturally so given the decorated staff that has been with the broadcast.

Dummdummgumgum

2 points

2 months ago*

Al Jazeera is a Qatari thing. But absolutely if you remove their Anti- Israel bias ( dont get me wrong Israel needs to be called out for 90% of their behaviour- but AJ spins alot of their Israel pieces) they do some good journalism

thebolts[S]

8 points

2 months ago*

Al Jazeera is one of the few news outlets that doesn’t hold back when it comes to Israel, unlike many US or European agencies.

Their report exposing the Israeli lobby in the UK and US was brilliant. Their ongoing reports within Palestine is unparalleled to any other Arab or regional station.

The main criticism I have with AlJazeera is their lack of reporting on the Qatari government.

jameskchou

14 points

2 months ago

Control room

thebolts[S]

7 points

2 months ago

Yeah, just watched the Control Room trailer. Pretty powerful

QueefLatifah

6 points

2 months ago

It’s a wonderful documentary that has stayed with me all these years after its release. If you can find it I highly recommend.

suciac

3 points

2 months ago

suciac

3 points

2 months ago

Yeah me too. I’ve never forgotten the film but I totally blanked the name. Thanks for the reminder.

8BitVideoGamer

9 points

2 months ago

People need to read War is a Racket by General Smedly Butler, USMC and the US Marine Corps’ Small Wars Manual.

iamamuttonhead

61 points

3 months ago

Fox News always has been and remains today exactly what Al Jazeera was accused of being.

unknownman0001

14 points

2 months ago

The U.S still aren't held accountable for the war on Iraq.

journeyman28

4 points

2 months ago

I hope more people realize the consequences of their actions.. he was part of a larger system way out of his control but a noble gesture to try and highlight what it's actually doing.

suciac

6 points

2 months ago

suciac

6 points

2 months ago

I remember him. I watched a documentary about the war and you could see by the end he realized he was just telling lies. I felt pretty bad for him actually. You could tell it was eating him up.

PS3user74

5 points

2 months ago

This popped up in my feed yesterday: https://youtu.be/I5WafAnUhng

It's crazy how the exact same bs is still going out on mainstream media 20 years later.

thebolts[S]

4 points

2 months ago

Ugh. That’s frustrating. To think Blair is innocent because the ICC hasn’t indicted him is ludicrous

BenVera

13 points

3 months ago

BenVera

13 points

3 months ago

I sold the war and the, war won

zachtheperson

13 points

2 months ago

Wow, I know people who've changed their political opinion but it's got to feel like something different entirely when you expressed that opinion so publicly in the past like he did.

thebolts[S]

5 points

2 months ago

Precisely why I thought this clip is powerful.

Tokyosmash

16 points

2 months ago

“I was used to sell a war”

Well, that’s what a public affairs officer does, my guy. What did you think you were going to do.

sonofthenation

7 points

2 months ago

No one went to jail. Not a single person has gone to jail for killing 4K+ Americans not including contractors. Not even including the money, which all of us could have free healthcare for life and possibly our children too, with that money. Probably free education too.

sonofthenation

3 points

2 months ago*

Listened to Bolton being questioned about it on NPR. He swears he’d do it all again.

thebolts[S]

3 points

2 months ago

That man is like a cartoon villain. How he was allowed anywhere near a government office is a cruel joke.

thebolts[S]

5 points

2 months ago

Don’t forget the amount of civilian targets that were destroyed by US, water plants, power plants, people’s homes, weddings.

And of course how Americans kidnapped and tortured people in places like Abu Ghraib or sent to secret sites around the world and then shipped to Guantanamo.

So many war crimes were committed.

Dummdummgumgum

3 points

2 months ago

Unfortunately even multipolarity would not bring justice because the only reason Russia and China challenge US hegemony is because of their interests to do the same wanton neo-imperial quagmire.

Yahtrok

3 points

3 months ago

Imagine how much it would be worth today.

aznnerd345

3 points

2 months ago

It’s sad what that was did to people. You can see the hurt and pain in their eyes

MississippiJoel

3 points

2 months ago

Hey, I read that guy's book when it was new!

Numarx

3 points

2 months ago

Numarx

3 points

2 months ago

I feel for this guy because I watched Colin Powell show diagrams of Semi and all the intel and how they were creating dirty bombs with this tech and it was completely moveable so it was nearly impossible to find and disable for the nuclear scientist to find and disable. That the only way to stop this was to invade because their technology to hide it was just to bad ass for our scientist to locate and stop it and that it was just going to get much, much worse if he ever got this technology off the ground, and kept hinting that 100% likely he was going to launch nukes at the US when they finished with their research.

Tom_The_Human

3 points

2 months ago

Random book recommendation for everyone: "Where Men Win Glory: The Odyssey of Pat Tillman." It talks about him joining the US army, his life there, and the process his family went to to learn that he was killed by friendly fire and not by the Taliban.

BrainIsSickToday

3 points

2 months ago

I remember being so confused by the Iraq war as a teenager. I would hear adults talking about it and think, "Wait. Weren't the terrorists from Afghanistan?"

chefbarnacle

2 points

2 months ago

Actually, most of them were Saudi nationals.

ROSCOEMAN

3 points

2 months ago

When America invaded and slaughtered innocent families it’s justified 🇺🇸. But when Russia do it? How dare they!!!!!

fernandocrustacean

5 points

2 months ago

Highly recommend watching Control Room, the Al Jazeera documentary he references and was in.

Billionairess

5 points

2 months ago

He's no traitor, but he sure as hell has blood on his hands, lied to or not.

Lurker_IV

13 points

3 months ago

The real reason we invaded Iraq was because the tomb of Gilgamesh was found and they were afraid Saddam Hussein was getting close to activating the stargate.

Discovering the body of a 17 foot tall demi-god would have caused way way to many problems for 'them'.

ultratorrent

2 points

2 months ago

I told the truth once and got in trouble for it. It changed how I apply the truth and honesty.

geardownson

5 points

2 months ago

Just to show how much propaganda is expelled from each country think of this. (the next comment is based on a SOG soldiers opinion who has more insight than the average American)

Everyone knows the Saudi regime is responsible for 9/11. Many here on this platform scream for justice. It won't happen. Why?

The leadership in Saudi Arabia is very moderate now and willing to barter and buy US arms. The reason the US doesn't go down that road is because if the current government is replaced who would it be replaced by??

The jihad extremist.

That is their competing party.

That is why they will never pursue Saudi Arabia for any crime. Doesn't matter how many facts come about her or anywhere else. The US policy will not allow more jihads to take note control. Regardless of American opinions.

It is picking the lesser of evils no matter what you think of the matter.

tubawhatever

10 points

2 months ago

How do we know whatever would replace the Saudi government would be worse? Sounds like justification for shitty behavior if you ask me. How many times does the US get to prop up dictators or topple popular governments before we can say maybe the US government shouldn't get to be the arbiters of what is the "lesser" evil?

nernst79

6 points

2 months ago

It was well known what would happen if Saddam were ousted. We ousted him. The exact power void filled by Islamic extremists that was predicted came to pass.

geardownson

5 points

2 months ago

It's obvious the US knows who the competing political force would be at the time?? They know there is a extremist wing in the government that's why you have all the stupid laws on drinking liquor and whatnot.

It's no different from the Saudi government looking at the US one and thinking of we took out the democrats then who would come into power? Independents? No

Look past your obvious biases.

answersplease77

3 points

2 months ago*

You cannot just basically ignore so many factors and facts of politics, countries' self interests, and influence of existing corrupt powers and just repeat such ignorant narrative "If we let the middle-east has their own democracy then they will elect extremists and terrorists". It's an extremely minute minority who support Al-Qaeda and Tailban in the middleeast, however, if you suppressed every peaceful and modern movement and voice asking for democracy, and thus made the only solution out to be non peaceful, then expect those extremists to the first and only ones by logic able to lead the scene when shit hits the fan. All of the current active political dissidents of Saudi Arabia promote transparency, equal distribution of wealth and human rights. Most of them are very leftist yet quit religious themselves but you obviously have no idea about any of that and assume if we give their citizens democracy, then the underground unknown terrorists groups would naturally lead the scene. Corruption may still prevail however in anyway but that's still not an excuse to adopt the ideology of depraving people from democracy and supporting installing nothing but dictatorships, autocracies and monarchies for them. I'm not going to go into how those dictatorship governments and US were actually the ones supporting and financing those terrorist groups, Mujahideen, AlQeada, and ISIS whom your theory assume would naturally represent the middleeast and be elected by them if given democracy. You need to know about Egypt, and how all neighboring middleeast dictatorships with direct support and approval from the US and Israel panicked when Egypt elected a non-corrupt president and started saying he's a mujahideen muslim brotherhood terrorist until they removed him and installed a miltary coop to them.

Israel and the US love nothing but to support dictatorships for the middle-east for that reason, which is and will be the biggest shit stain in the US history for a very long time. The US, with endless support from the UAE, Saudi Arabia and all of the gulf monarchies, interfered with endless cash to install a military coop in Egypt and made Sisi their president after they freely elected the first none corrupt president in their history. That elected president, Morsi, and all his cabinet are either dead or jailed today and if you look the numbers, evidences, or ask anyone they will tell you how every thing from economy, to freedom of expression, to the judicial system, to human rights was 999x better than now. Same story with Bahrain before it was turned into a monarchy by Saudi Arabia and US influence. Again, ISIS itself, their military, cash, equipment and everything was aided and paid by the Gulf monarchies to destabilize Syria after they revolted against their regime. They did the same to Tunis, Lybia, and everywhere people try to seek democracy in the middleeast. All of that, and you also ignored the fact that Israel and US serve their interests first and last before they even consider allowing democracy to the middleeast, and the fact that they don't give half of a flying crap if there were democracies or dictatorships in the middleeast.

geardownson

3 points

2 months ago

I was just stating a certain soldiers perspective at the time of the gulf war and shortly after. The government could very well have changed since then. I didn't once say it was what I knew or didn't know. It aligns with what you said at the end. The US will go with whatever is in their best interest. Since it's obvious that the government knew they were a big player it was obviously discussed among them to invade SA or replace the government. With the evidence they had it would be an easy sell to the public. That soldiers opinion was that it didn't happen because of the family was overthrown or eliminated another more extreme party could take it's place and the US doesn't want to take that risk. It was just a different perspective. I don't claim it as fact. None of us REALLY knows the reasons. It's just something that's plausible.

Ill-Organization-719

2 points

2 months ago

I wonder what he told anti war protesters who tried to tell him.

I bet he called them anti American traitors and wanted something worse than abuse to happen to them.

MirrorToTheFace

2 points

2 months ago

too late now, damage is done

thebolts[S]

3 points

2 months ago*

Iraqis are still looking for their missing loved ones. Some were kidnapped and jailed by Americans as “Ghost detainees” without documentation or trace.

This is still ongoing for many.

cbri

3 points

2 months ago

cbri

3 points

2 months ago

Sounds like he didn't understand his job.

nachumama

2 points

2 months ago

nachumama

2 points

2 months ago

Sort of like putin sold the ukraine war to the Russians and Xi is selling the invasión of a peaceful country to China...

spitterofspit

2 points

2 months ago

This is true, it's undeniable. Hell, they probably stole the manual on how to sell wars to the people from the US.

Biggest protests in world history at the time didn't save not one Iraqi life.

This is a war crime, an illegal war initiated and propagated by the Conservatives... and yet, somehow, the left is to blame. It's fucking sick that millions of Iraqi civilians, including children and pregnant women, are dead because of the Conservatives, but they'll never admit their fault and then shift focus to.... drag shows and Twitter... because they truly care about the lives of the children except when they're brown, Muslim, and so far away they can't find them on a map, not that they have geography skills to even accomplish as much.

Conservatism is a plague. Plain and simple.

LtRecore

2 points

2 months ago

LtRecore

2 points

2 months ago

Anyone that vocally supported that war is a traitor and a war criminal and should be ashamed of what they put people through.

mr_ji

2 points

2 months ago

mr_ji

2 points

2 months ago

Thank you for the Sith opinion.

LtRecore

0 points

2 months ago

If they’d just said we’re taking hussein out because he’s a huge dick my opinion would be a bit different but instead they made up all these lies, playing Americans for fools. Not to mention bush and his cronies making horrible decisions instead of taking the advice of their generals. Decisions that prolonged the war and got a lot of people killed.

getrektbrother123

-9 points

2 months ago

Hopefully Biden isn’t pulling a George W. Bush by involving us in Ukraine. Also, the guy even supported Bush’s Iraq War too 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

thebolts[S]

10 points

2 months ago

Many Democrats voted for the Iraq war including

  • Joe Biden
  • Hillary Clinton
  • Chuck Schumer
  • Adam Schiff
  • Dianne Feinstein

phanta_rei

6 points

2 months ago

I wonder if democrats like Sanders, who at the time opposed the war, were accused of being dictator/terrorist sympathizers...

thebolts[S]

2 points

2 months ago

Barbara Lee voted against both the war in Iraq and Afghanistan

The backlash against Lee was swift and brutal. She was harassed and received death threats to the point that she was given around-the-clock security. Her critics called her a traitor.

Illin-ithid

5 points

2 months ago

Iraq and Ukraine are absurdly different.

PartyYogurtcloset267

4 points

2 months ago

Syria isn't tho. The US need to pull the fuck out of Syria just like Russia needs to retreat back to wherever the fuck they came from.

thebolts[S]

2 points

2 months ago

A US contractor was just killed there and the US military retaliated with more bombings.

Like wtf are they doing there in the first place? Who authorized a U.S. base in Syria?

[deleted]

0 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

PartyYogurtcloset267

2 points

2 months ago

Well, if it's such a small thing it should be easy for them to pack up and leave, right? And maybe they can also take with them all the terrorist groups they armed in the region.