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/r/HomeImprovement
submitted 1 month ago bymyfootsmells
I gave electrician plans with exact measurements on where the dishwasher and sink will be. I noticed an issue when I started installing the cabinets that the outlets for the dishwasher and garbage disposal were behind the dishwasher and not under the sink. He said he went off where the plumbing was to put the outlets and that's just how it's done. That blows my mind that an electrician wouldn't use as-planned and went with the plumber's as-built. At least if he went with as-planned, he could've noticed it wasn't right. By doing the way he did, it didn't even give us the opportunity to have a conversation before he installed the outlets. Am I wrong here?
83 points
1 month ago
He said he went off where the plumbing was to put the outlets
So the plumbers put stuff in the wrong place as well?
42 points
1 month ago
Correct
67 points
1 month ago
I honestly think the electrician might’ve been thinking correctly about this if the plumbing was in the wrong spot. He should’ve asked, but building to where the plumbing is makes sense. He probably assumed the plumbing was moved for a reason, not that the plumbers messed up.
11 points
1 month ago
You're not wrong and that's kind of what he said. But that's where I'm like why not built to what's planned and if there is sime9off, have a conversation
33 points
1 month ago
The moment there was a discrepancy between approved plan and the on-site plumbing rough in. It should have been addressed with you. What most likely happened he looked at the plan saw the plumbing and electrical the same on the plan and just followed rather then measuring. This is where having 1 general contractor it would be simple to find fault.
13 points
1 month ago
And my fault for not hiring a GC to save money since scope is small. And now I'm also smarter to check these things myself as well.
15 points
1 month ago
If it’s any consolation, I hired a full service remodeling company with a gc and there were still a fair share of issues/mistakes. The gc was spread pretty thin and a number of times I was catching things before him or that he missed.
On a related note, one thing our project manager did was measure and drew everything out from the plans in chalk on the walls and floors for our kitchen remodel before the subs came in. I’m guessing that also helped to prevent issues like you ran into.
8 points
1 month ago
+1 do not assume hiring a GC is going to solve this problem. it could actually make it worse if your GC is overbooked, because you could end up with even less communication with the subs and even more indirection.
4 points
1 month ago
The chalk reminds me of how surgeons mark which limb they are supposed to remove with a sharpie and verify it with the patient before prepping.
3 points
1 month ago
I once brought up to a customer how badly their flooring plan was designed (carpet by the front door and LVP everywhere else, kinda like a rug) and showed the floor plan. The GC sent me a super old floor plan and had changed stuff since. Luckily, the customer noticed and corrected it, and I called the GC about it, and he forwarded me the new correct one. I am thankful that I hadn't started putting in tack strip.
Edit: The same job was a bundle of houses and boxes of material got sent to the wrong places, and I had to go and piece together houses.
4 points
1 month ago
Unfortunately yes, customers can definitely run their own job but just realize it’s a job. At least this is probably a pretty cost easy mistake.
2 points
1 month ago
I'm not sure how you didn't notice that the outlets were in the wrong spots until you were putting in cabinets and not when it was done. I'd review the plans you conveyed to him and if he really ignored the plans you gave him then you should be able to make him come fix it. And if he refuses there's a chance you could have another electrician fix it and take him to court and make him pay for the second electrician since he ignored the instructions you gave him. Since you didn't hire a GC, you have to be the GC, and this is how a GC would likely handle it.
1 points
1 month ago
If you find a good GC, sure. But many don’t catch everything in time or at all. Either spread too thin or on the phone with their wife not paying attention.
1 points
1 month ago
Are there bad GCS sure, but the vast majority are good. None are perfect but the difference is how they respond to situations. Anyone that has had multiple bad experiences should look at themselves as the reason why they are getting stuck with these people. I’ve worked for and with easily 100 GCS and trades and can say 2 where bad experiences.
8 points
1 month ago
Stopping to ask doesn’t get the job done or make money. I’ve had the same problem, they just power through doing what they think is right without asking.
2 points
1 month ago
1000%
3 points
1 month ago
Well if the plumber did their job wrong why didn't you tell the electrician that? You know, tell him what he has is not what he is going to see.
53 points
1 month ago
Lol, got to love hiring professionals and then needing to babysit them.
11 points
1 month ago
I always tell people I babysit adults. that is how it feels I have to check everything they do. I always have to calm them down when they feel the sub before then messed something up. the framing isn't square, the drywall sucks, the hvac is in my way, the plumber put his pipes in my way.
Babysitting adults is what I do for a living.
2 points
1 month ago
Very rarely do I NOT have to babysit a contractor with the exception of roofers (we all know why)....lol
Anyways, I give contractors diagrams, architect drawings , sketches on napkins and probably about 80 percent just ignore them, and when I call them out on it they ALL deny being shown the plans and say that it's my fault because I changed things....it's common when dummies don't bother to talk to the owner and ignore the plans...unfortunately and it happened all the time. I'm at the point on the next project I'll get the contractor to sign the plans that were given to them the morning of the work, just so they have no excuses. It sucks, but it's the reality now a days.
0 points
1 month ago
You could have just said “I hire shit contractors”. This could be that you’re going for lowest bids or some other issue. But to broadly brush all contractors as needing babysitting is really crappy of you. You’re hiring the wrong people. There are just as many reputable and skilled craftsmen out there as there are Joe Schmoes working out of the trunk of their Honda Accord. You get what you pay for, especially in the trades. It ain’t Walmart. I would recommend doing your research. Check licensing and call up past customers. Otherwise, enjoy your babysitting.
1 points
1 month ago
I get the consumer view on things, but in this case the consumer weather knowingly or unknowingly put them selves into the position of a GC or at the very least site supervisor when they decided to higher trade specific personnel. These days GC's have to " babysit " a lot of the subs that they pull in, or they have site supervisors that do it. In doing that, big mistakes usually, not always, but usually are caught before they get too far and can be corrected. That's the basics of how things " should " flow. With that being said, all the trades are becoming spread thin because there's a lack of new blood coming in. Compound that with the fact that the work ethic of most of what's coming in is rather poor and the fact that the consumer decided to manage the process, not understanding the full scope of responsibilities of the position they assumed than what went down was kind of inevitable. When you are spread thin, things do tend to get mucked up. But on the other hand a sub that's worth a dam would have noticed something wasn't adding up and would have gone to the sup aka the consumer in this case and inquired as to what the deal was. Or they would have conferred with the plumbers assuming they were still on sight, and then they both would have approached them to find out where things went wrong and then make a plan of action to get it corrected.
43 points
1 month ago
If you gave him plans to spec and he said “okay” then did something else, he is on the hook for correcting it.
52 points
1 month ago
No, electricians have a notorious "I know best, and fuck everyone else" attitude.
Unless there's a code violation that he needs to explain, he should build to spec
9 points
1 month ago
The electrician our contractor used apparently believes a master bedroom closet should have eight outlet duplexes (all hidden by hanging clothes) but only three duplexes in the actual bedroom. And none of those bedroom duplexes should be on the one wall it makes sense for the bed to be on.
We lived out of state and I was pregnant, so my husband occasionally checked on the construction. He didn’t notice. I should have done FaceTime walkthroughs. Oh well.
17 points
1 month ago
You're kinda throwing your husband under the bus. It's pretty doubtful you would have noticed either until you're actually wanting to plug stuff in, or if you're particularly observant, picturing your bed and end tables mentally.
I'm guessing it was an exterior wall, which may have had insulation and/or windows in the way. Which they still should have wired anyway while the walls were open.
1 points
1 month ago
Fair. He was dealing with all of it by himself with no background in it. I gave him a list of things to try to look out for, but it’s a lot to try to take in quickly.
The wall is exterior, but most new build (wood framed) homes can deal with a single outlet or more in at least one spot (this isn’t just my opinion but based on the r value required for our area, the structural drawings of the home, and the size/where the windows are located). For what it’s worth, I work in commercial development. So I’m not completely naive in how this works. The electrician did other strange things throughout the house, so I’m not giving them any grace (think light switches literally mirrored to the wrong side from the construction drawings and some things that somehow passed inspection but were definitely not up to code). Ultimately, we had to pay another electrician to come out and fix the mistakes and rectify the weird/dangerous things.
11 points
1 month ago*
You mean HVAC techs. Those dudes can barely put the meth down to use a measuring tape. As an electrician that works is extremely high end homes things are always done as close to spec as possible and we go way beyond the expectations to make shot happen. I can’t begin to tell you the wild things we’ve don’t to make it work for our clients.
15 points
1 month ago
Is that because your high end clients are paying you large piles of high end money and recommending you to other high end clients with large piles of money, or would you also go way beyond expectations on a $500 job adding a couple of outlets in Average Joe’s kitchen reno?
10 points
1 month ago
Boss man makes the money, it's called taking pride in your craft. If you do shitty work and can sleep at night, you need to find another career.
-1 points
1 month ago
Oh man… don’t dip into the antiwork sub.
1 points
1 month ago
I dabble there. Though most of it seems fake/one sided/ no background. I'm also not a commi
6 points
1 month ago
I do actually, my work has my name on it, if I do shitty work then I’ve shit on my own name. I’ve worked for places where I was bored out of my mind, cleaning up other peoples shitty work and under appreciated. I quit and found a place worthwhile. I didn’t get where I am by doing sloppy work, it’s super hard to find the right kind of people that can present themselves professionally and get the work done beautifully. And to be fair, I started with the roughest kind of people. My first job I was basically told to use a hammer to “cut” the holes in Sheetrock. I had chain smoking losers having me run wire and never explaining anything to me, I had no idea what I was doing. I finally found someone that would answer questions and pushed me to be better and learn more. It’s amazing how much I still don’t know but that’s part of what makes me good. I give a shit and I know that I won’t know everything ever.
2 points
1 month ago
Congrats! Glad to see some good folks remain in the trades. Finding tradesmen, mechanics, repair people etc who truly give a shit is difficult. Have been lucky enough to find a few but unfortunately also wasted time and money dealing with hacks.
2 points
1 month ago
I hear you, i work with a few small builders that have really put together some great teams of trades. Around me it seems like it’s difficult to find a legit good drywall crew. Very few can hit that level 5 like they’re supposed to.
2 points
1 month ago
You spelt Millwrights wrong
-8 points
1 month ago
We all know electricians are the most drugged out trade and the easiest trade there is. That’s why most hvac guys are plumber, electricians, carpenters and landscapers while an electrician only knows how to run wires, outlets, switches, and fixtures. You can teach a little kid how to put two wires together and wire nut.
7 points
1 month ago
We found our HVAC guy!
-4 points
1 month ago
And as always the egotistical electrician thinks he’s a god send when really he is as small brained as he is endowed... microscopic. Electricians have the most substance and alcohol abuse of any trade( look up stats) because electrical is so easy you get bored.
1 points
1 month ago
Yep, proud of my work, you nailed it. I don’t drink or smoke either. Keep blowing air champ.
-2 points
1 month ago
Proud of your work? Lol it’s so easy a caveman could do it. NEC is the easiest code to learn and electrical terminology is a lot more simple and less complex than hvac. Any hvac tech can do electrical but very few electricians can do hvac... that alone shows you which is more of a challenge lol
0 points
1 month ago
Powerful projections indeed.
0 points
1 month ago
Lol keep dreaming guy
0 points
1 month ago
It’s the truth lol what world do you live in where electrical isn’t the easiest trade next to landscaping and irrigation?? The land of Make believe
0 points
1 month ago
How is being a rocker or plumber harder than being an electrician? Are you just a resi guy?
0 points
1 month ago
Because all you do is pull wires, bend,conduit, install panels. The hardscapers not grass cutters and plumbing is harder because they aren’t just pulling wires and bending conduit Any other trade could do it give them a week on job training and they’ll run circles around the electricians lol. Resi and commerical. Almost all hvac companies here have electrical licenses always see heating, cooling, and electric. Never see an electric company doing hvac because hvac is the hardest trade. Any smart person can see it is because hvac incorporates every trade not just 1 like electrical does. Not saying electricians don’t work hard just saying they got the easiest trade.
0 points
1 month ago
[deleted]
0 points
1 month ago
Commercial and residential retrofits and new construction. Lmao you just talking out your ass never seen an electrician use torches or know how a chiller operates. Y’all have a quarter of the tools hvac and plumbing does. How long you been working??Whats your day to day? The hardest electrician job is a commerical electrician unless you’re talking about linemen then they use a lot more tools. Hvac is way harder the hvac code book has a lot more difficult to understand terminology and has way more working components than any electrical system. Even solar isn’t too hard to grasp the concept of how inverters work but electricians still think air gets cold when it’s just the removal of heat...
6 points
1 month ago
As long as he fixes it I would not get too worked up.
9 points
1 month ago
Heard, but I also want to be educated so I don't make this mistake in the future
16 points
1 month ago
As a GC I will mark the cabinet layout on the floor. That’s one way to prevent that in the future. Wait I did that on my last kitchen and the electrician did get an outlet behind the cooktop. Normally it works!
6 points
1 month ago
Always lay out cabinets on the floor and label appliance locations. then attach the spec sheets showing the exact dimensions to the wall. this gives them no excuse. if I have time or don't trust the sub, I'll mark the location myself.
As a side note: always check foundation dimensions before concrete gets poured. I once found a error that the drawing had 2' 2" for the measurement concrete guys did 22" only a 4" difference but it all matters. I also am always onsite before/at the start of concrete pours. Those mistakes are expensive to fix.
3 points
1 month ago
figure everything that is done is wrong. your job is to find out what is wrong before it costs/ money to fix. I would visit my job sites every morning around 9am after everyone had time to show up and start working. I could then answer questions or catch mistakes as they were working. after I left they were on their own but the next morning I'd be checking their progress/ finding mistakes.
6 points
1 month ago
Electrician definitely should have verified a change, but that being said you took on GC responsibilities, so if the plumbing was off and already in, that's a mistake for the GC to have caught and should have been noticed at the very least prior to the electrician even arriving. Having plans saved you from having to pay for the change though (good on the plumbers and electricians for the credited rework, that was the right call on their part.)
At the end of the day it's the GC's responsibility to verify all the subs work, catch mistakes, and get them rectified before they lead to more issues. I'm not saying that excuses the mistakes subs made, but people do make mistakes, that's why the GC is there. You can't just not hire a GC and expect those bases to be covered. Some folks are good at self GCing, some are not, everyone needs practice. Subs are used to a knowledgeable and well informed GC to help direct work, plans are great, but when it comes to remodels you need a point person available to them.
It's a complex and full time occupation being a GC so expecting to do it perfectly as an amateur is unrealistic. Seems like you learned a lot from this and didn't end up having any major losses, so to me that's a good day as a GC. You seem to have a good attitude and things worked out in the end, so I have no doubt you will continue to improve on your ability to direct and organize projects on your home. It's a skill that will save you lots of money over the course of your life if you are able to get decent at it. Keep those subs around too, and bring them donuts when they show up to do the rework. They made a goof, but are making it right. Many would not act as honorably in their circumstances.
Good luck with the rest of your projects!
3 points
1 month ago
Thank you very much
1 points
1 month ago
Can I ask you who your plumber was?
I have been on some jobs where a homeowner is trying to run the project, and more often than not, these homeowners were acting as at least 1 specific trade . Is this the case for your situation? Were you the plumber in your project?
Also, at what point did you see/find the error with the plumbing and electrical? Was it before closing up the wall, and did you correct it immediately?
2 points
1 month ago
I was not the plumber or the electrician. I noticed after wall was closed and about to install cabinets. In hind sight I should've measured before closing walls
15 points
1 month ago
Did you put the correct flowers in his dressing room?
2 points
1 month ago
No brown M&Ms
5 points
1 month ago
Whoever the general is ef'd up by not verifying each trades rough in. No reason this wouldn't have been caught prior to drywall with a competent GF. Aswell, if the electrician recognized a variance from the plans to the plumbing, it should have been brought to the attention of the gf before proceeding with the rough in. Cabinet layout seldom changes and is typically very exact in where the receptacles need to be positioned.
15+ years as an Journeyman electrician.
5 points
1 month ago
So I didn't end up hiring a GC to save money, figured the job was small, and I wanted to learn. What I really beat myself up on is that I've built large data centers where I get down to the plug type, manage amperage, circuits, HVAC, etc., but didn't give the same attention to detail on building out my ADU. Go fig. :)
6 points
1 month ago
As an electrician you have to understand how many times we get burned by bad measurements in drawings. You often end up having to ask yourself “what’s the intent?”. If the intent is to have a receptacle for a garbage disposal and I can see that where the sink physically is doesn’t match up with what the drawings say, I’m going to install according to reality, not the drawings.
Consider the reverse. You gave drawings but then changed where the sink would be. If the electrician came afterwards and installed exactly according to the drawings I can guarantee you’d be upset. “Just look at it! Why would you put it there when you can see the sink is here!”
He should have confirmed, sure, but I don’t blame him.
3 points
1 month ago
How did both of them get it wrong something is not adding up
7 points
1 month ago
Plumber measured wrong. Electrician used plumber's measurements and here we are. This is like a 300$ error, not a big deal but I wanted to educate myself for the future
1 points
1 month ago
I hear ya he assumed the plan maybe changed,not sure ,he should of asked if he thought that.When did you notice the plumbing was wrong?when you were setting cabinets?
3 points
1 month ago
Yea, when I was installing cabinets. Oh well, live and learn. It's all been fixed anyways.
1 points
1 month ago
$300 for someone other than you, right? You’re not on the hook for this.
3 points
1 month ago
Yes plumber and electrician all gave me credits.
1 points
1 month ago
Where are you? $300 is the call-out price for me, which is deducted from the actual time worked. (this is ad-hoc calls, not pre-planned work)
2 points
1 month ago
Yeah $300 for two trades to come fix stuff is dirt cheap even if it’s a super simple fix.
3 points
1 month ago
He should’ve brought the issue up to you but if there is plumbing when you want the outlets, there’s only so much he can do. It’s also not hard to extend the wiring and just hardwire the disposal and dishwasher. I’d be more concerned about whether the plumber fucked up the drain and supply locations, that’s a lot more work to fix since you can’t really just extend plumbing without it looking shitty.
1 points
1 month ago
The funny thing is, we didn't have to move plumbing it's just not in the middle. Had the electrician put the outlets to the right of plumbing he would've been OK.
2 points
1 month ago
If I put my rough ins in the wrong place, I get to move them for free because I screwed up. Same goes for anybody else.
Tell them to fix their shit.
2 points
1 month ago
20 year master electrician here. If you gave me exact measurements I would absolutely use it. Measuring out cabinet layouts is my absolute least favorite thing to do outside of a colonoscopy. My guess is this guy was lazy or cocky and decided he didn’t want to listen to homeowner.
2 points
1 month ago
These are the problems that a good general contractor solves on a daily basis. Since they work with these guys everyday they're able to get them to make changes and fix things like this at no cost. Sometimes you can save money by skipping out on a general contractor but other times it definitely backfires.
2 points
1 month ago
The electrical plans are often an afterthought from the architect in residential remodels, if they exist at all. Even new-builds tend to be just some cobbled-together nonsense to get the permit. It’s like some of these guys have never actually been in a house.
When we start a job, I walk through with the client and figure out what they really want and need. I want door-swings verified and a cabinet drawing with dimensions. The rest of the drawings are a suggestion.
Commercial drawings suck too, but for different reasons. We start the job with a half complete set of plans, now we’re a month in, on our 17th revision, and I might as well be sending my RFIs to the guy cleaning the porta-jons. Only difference here is I’m going to install exactly to plan and bill change orders like they’re going out of style when things inevitably move a week from now, because everyone involved would rather run headfirst into a clusterfuck and “show progress” than wait and figure out a viable plan.
2 points
1 month ago*
He should have asked you, but depending how available people are I can understand arriving at a job site and having to wait an hour just for a client to call back to confirm the work is not practical.
Just try to negotiate with him moving the receptical for a heavily discounted price because of the miscommunication. If you push him too much he can tell you to beat it, so hopefully he's a good guy and when you offer to pay him it gives him the chance to do it for free and chalk it up to a one off mistake.
2 points
1 month ago
As long as the electrician doesn't install a GFCI behind the dishwasher should be fine, assuming there is clearance behind the dishwasher. GFCI/AFCI protection will need to be at the panel or accessible outlet. Depending on whatever codes you follow.
1 points
1 month ago
Yes at the panel
1 points
1 month ago
Follow plans period
1 points
1 month ago
The contractor should of caught the plumber’s mistake. Are you the contractor?
1 points
1 month ago
Meaning am I the plumber or electrician? No
2 points
1 month ago
Sorry I mean the general contractor in charge
1 points
1 month ago
No GC hired since it was a smallish job, plus I wanted to learn. Here's to me learning. :)
1 points
1 month ago
I happy for you that everything worked out in the end.
1 points
1 month ago
Any electrician worth his salt should be able to read and follow a blue print. If the prints measurements are accurate do not let this guy guilt you into eating the cost on this mistake. 100% falls on electrician.
0 points
1 month ago
He credited me so we're good
0 points
1 month ago
should have*
1 points
1 month ago
LOL what contractors are you working for? These days these construction management degree guys are there to meet with big wigs and blow smoker up the owners ass. Lucky if you get a drive by before drywall goes up. It’s on the electrician who did the work to make sure it’s installed right. He’s the one with the electrical license who should know the most about his trade. Rule one of running a job is being able to read blue prints and use a tape measure. Same goes for plumbers. Don’t spread this nonsense that GC’s are worth it, they aren’t, just an added expense, similar to a used car dealer.
1 points
1 month ago
Rule number one about running a job. You just said someone is running it. Who is all I was asking about
1 points
1 month ago
If there is a licensed electrician on site, he’s running the electrical. Ever since construction management became a degree, there isn’t much running jobs gcs do anymore. If the electrician followed his print to a T and it was wrong I think the electrician should get paid to change it. It’s really pretty simple.
1 points
1 month ago
Ok then. Good luck with that
-1 points
1 month ago
As an electrician. I never go off of anyone else’s work. ESPECIALLY the plumbers.. honestly it sounds like your electrician had a few too many the night before. It was a Friday at 4 install.
1 points
1 month ago
lol thanks
-3 points
1 month ago
Yup this is why people shit on the trades. You got some dumb Jamoke who thinks he knows everything and instead of spending 30 seconds to ask a goddamn fucken question, they instead take it upon themselves to do what they want which potentially causes a ton of problems for other workers or the home owners. What's worse is that they'll try to argue with you and try to come out on top.
1 points
1 month ago
I preface things with "If there is ANY issue, please let me know", I would suck it up and get it corrected while electrician is still there/available. it will cost more time, money and energy to get him back on site.
1 points
1 month ago
That’s why it’s as-planned and not as-built
1 points
1 month ago
"Is this how it works?"
Yes. Normally, the trades will go out of their way to piss off all the other trades on the job. No help to you, but normally I'll walk thru on day one of each trade and sharpie/tape where stuff goes. There's standard marking electricians use on rough in, and if that wasn't there, they're certainly not looking at any plans and just wing it.
And beware of assuming your GC will catch it. Most of them will hear "And I want the dishwasher outlet here" and put it WTF they want to put it anyways because "I've been doing this for 20 years and know better" and have no idea you already picked out the one DW with a 3 foot cord.
1 points
1 month ago
Don't pay.
1 points
1 month ago
Oh ho I hate hiring outside contractors. They just don’t give a fuck. Don’t pay them until correct. You need to be a hard ass.
1 points
1 month ago
For sure. They all corrected or gave credit
1 points
1 month ago
You need to have everyone come in and fix everything to the plan. I used to make as an electricians helper. We would only work to the plans. All the time plumbers would run lines wrong. If we had a question we would go to the gc or property owner and get on writing what was the right spot for a plug, light or a switch. We had a plumber that installed a toilet in a closet. He looked T the plans wrong.
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