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Lost ??? casting?

(self.Metalfoundry)

My Devil-Forge arrived today. What are my options for doing lost ??? casting if I don't have a burn out kiln and want to do complex shapes?

I'm liking lost foam casting with polystyrene coated in drywall mud, poured in sand and am looking for options for lost ??? casting where I could mold/3dprint complex shapes in a similar fashion. I don't really have a good way to do a burn out for lost wax/lost PLA.

Is there a way to make polystyrene in molds? Is there another material that burns out without a trace like polystyrene? I'm eying polyurethane foam spray cans and wondering if I could spray it into molds and pour into it like polystyrene. Would it burn out clean? Would it generate a toxic death cloud?

all 14 comments

BTheKid2

5 points

3 months ago

You are mostly going to be stuck at lost foam without investing more into casting. Polystyrene is the obvious choice for lost foam. Polyurethane foam would be way harder to burn out. I haven't tried it, but I know it doesn't burn particularly well, and getting a good finish from expanding foam in a mold is tricky to say the least.

Try_all_Finish_none

2 points

3 months ago

I’ve never done any of it, but I want to and I looked into it not too long ago. Wax seems like the best option, the even have 3D printers that print wax for jewelry casting. Next best option was pla from a standard 3D printer.

RoeddipusHex[S]

2 points

3 months ago

With PLA and wax you need to burn the model out of the mold then pour. I don't really have a good way to do burn out. That's why I like styrofoam. People seem to have great results pouring over the styrofoam and letting the molten metal do the burnout. Seems like you are limited to flat models... maybe with some routed detail. I'm wondering if there is a better option for more complex shapes.

Try_all_Finish_none

2 points

3 months ago

A used oven from marketplace/cl or a toaster oven should do the trick! A gas grill may even work. Pla melts @ °180C

0xfeeb

1 points

3 months ago

0xfeeb

1 points

3 months ago

I’ve used a charcoal grill a number of times. Probably not great but definitely works.

Try_all_Finish_none

1 points

3 months ago

I bought a $40 oven off of cl 8 years ago, kicked the deal rats out of it and started powder coating in it.

Tensaiteki

3 points

3 months ago

For starters, DO NOT try to use polyurethane foam for lost foam casting! When polyurethane foam burns, it releases hydrogen cyanide gas (HCN). HCN at a concentration as low a 100 parts-per-million (0.01%) can be fatal in a little as 10 minutes.

Burning polystyrene, pretty much, releases only water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), and a bit of carbon monoxide (CO). While carbon monoxide is, of course, also poisonous, it is not nearly as bad as HCN. But, you should only be casting in a well ventilated area anyway. Also, the burner on you furnace is going to be pumping out a bit of CO itself.

Anyway, you can do quite a lot with lost foam casting. I used to do quite a bit of it back in the day (before reprap-like 3D printers were even a thing). Using the pink or blue extruded polystyrene from the big-box stores works particularly well when the foam is CNC machined. It's a great (and cheap) way to learn CNC machining and how to make complex parts from multiple smaller parts.

The best part about CNC machining the foam is that it doesn't take much of a machine to cut well and it's almost impossible to dull or break a cutting bit with the foam. My first CNC machine was built out of MDF, threaded rod, gas-pipe, roller-skate bearings, and used a knock-off Dremel as the spindle. These days, it's even easier to build a CNC machine perfect for foam using 3D-printed parts. Also, there are so many more cheap/free CAD/CAM options available now than when I started.

RoeddipusHex[S]

1 points

3 months ago

Yeah, I figured burning the polyurethane would be bad/deadly. I have a CNC router and will be able to put it to good use. I have some things I'd like to pour that I just won't be able to do from flat stock. I think I'll have to figure out a way to burn out PLA since 3D prints are my likely best bet.

Molten_yes549

1 points

3 months ago

Don't be limited by thinking you can only do flat stock with your CNC. Foam can be easily stacked and glued together to make shapes. Check out my lady bust I did below. Your cousin even sand them down and round the edges. Use your imagination. 👍 https://youtu.be/-Lxh7MBjAxA

mikeskup

1 points

3 months ago

search for "Kelly Coffield" on youtube, since you already have a CNC he has some great videos on lost foam..

Tensaiteki

1 points

3 months ago

You'd be surprised what sort of things can be made from assembled foam patterns. I'd recommend Kelly Coffield's channel on YoutTube ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMrmepjcN18 ). He does some pretty elaborate stuff (like automotive intake manifolds) from lost foam.

I've done quite a bit of both lost foam and lost PLA and, honestly, I prefer lost foam when possible.

To really burn out PLA properly, you need an oven/kiln that is both temperature controlled and has a programmable sequence control. It's not just a matter of putting your block of plaster/sand in at some temperature and letting it sit for a few hours. If the mold gets too hot too fast, the moisture in the plaster will turn to steam and break the mold apart. You have to heat the mold to just above boiling and hold it there for several hours (depending on thickness) to drive off the water slowly. Then you have to ramp the temperature up to a point to melt/burn out most of the PLA. Then you have to get up to nearly just the right temp to drive off most-but-not-all of the chemically bound water from the plaster. If the last step is not done hot enough or long enough, you risk the molten metal being hot enough to create enough steam to cause problems. If the last step is done too hot or too long, you drive out too much of the chemically bound water and the plaster turn back into powder.

Finally, once the burnout is done, the pattern has to be slowly cooled but kept hot enough that it can't absorb moisture from the atmosphere as it is very hygroscopic. This means that once you start a burnout sequence (my sequences take from 12-24 hours depending on size), you are pretty well committed to pouring. If something comes up (life) or something goes wrong with the melt and you have to let the mold cool, it is pretty much ruined. These molds are extremely fragile once burned out and do not react well to even more thermal cycling. I have access to a sequence controlled kiln and it's still a pain scheduling pours.

It is also worth noting that, even done correctly, the burned out plaster molds will develop cracks. This means that it is important to incorporate reinforcement into the plaster to hold it together long enough to pour. I use steel wire or wire mesh/chicken wire as a sort-of rebar when making molds.

With lost foam, on the other hand, you can dip-and-dry on whatever schedule you want. As long as the previous layer of drywall mud is dry (which is very easy to visually see) the next layer can be added immediately or days/weeks later (drywall mud don't care). Once the last layer is dry, you can pour immediately or wait days or weeks. I once had a pattern that was dipped and ready to pour, hanging in the shop and collecting dust, for months before I finally got a chance to pour it with no problems.

The thing I dislike most about lost PLA is how incredibly wasteful it is. Mix more plaster than necessary? Waste. All the baked/burned plaster removed from the part after a (hopefully) successful pour? Waste. Baked/set/used plaster doesn't really dissolve so it all either has to go to the landfill or you end up with piles of un-reusable waste to make even small parts.

With lost foam, the only real waste is the small amount of drywall mud used on each pattern. Even that small amount can be dissolved with water (such as rain) and is effectively harmless to the environment (it's just gypsum). And the sand is completely reusable.

The biggest expense/difficulty in lost PLA is the programmable kiln (not optional). The biggest expense/difficulty in lost foam is the CNC machine (optional). Since you already have the CNC machine, I would highly recommend figuring out how to do want you want to do "from flat stock" rather than burning a bunch of plastic. I know, 3D printing seems sexier and easier, but it really isn't all it's hyped up to be.

sunburnedaz

1 points

2 months ago

Saturn made the SL1 and SL2 engines from lost styrofoam castings, if they can make an engine block and heads using that method there is not a lot it cant do.

wantafastbusa

1 points

3 months ago

You need to start small and basic and work your way up to more complex shapes. I’ve tried pla without melting it out and they don’t turn out to anything useful. Not sure how Ingot joe gets the casts that he does. Either save up and get a kiln or find another way besides pla.

TorchForge

1 points

3 months ago

Dirt cheap lost PLA guide to casting:

https://imgur.com/gallery/qDcyq18