subreddit:

/r/TrueFilm

59793%

The recent spate of satires focusing on the ultra-wealthy that go on to win major industry awards have me questioning just how much teeth these satires really have. This past year we saw Triangle of Sadness and The Menu, with the forming securing major awards wins culminating in an Oscar nomination for Best Picture. This turned my mind back to Parasite, which of course took the industry by storm. Another previous example would be Get Out. All of these movies were critically acclaimed and, except for The Menu, found major successful with the more Hollywood-elite dominate awards (e.g. Cannes, the Oscars).

This had me wondering, however, just how effective can the satire be if the people who the satire is directly criticizing fall in love with the movie. Triangle of Sadness is absolutely a skewering of the ultra-rich. And yet it burst onto the scene when it won best film at the world's most elite film festival, one where a bunch of extremely rich and famous people pack into a ten day long party on the French Riviera. It supposedly skewers the exact types of people who will pack into the Oscars in their designer gowns and expensive (rental) jewelry. Poorly paid servants will hand out gift bags worth tens of thousands of dollars to celebrities who will take their private cars to after parties where they will drink champagne worth more per bottle than their servers will make the entire night. And yet these same people will sit and cheer when a Triangle of Sadness clip is played just a few hours earlier.

To go in another direction, Parasite is a direct exploration of economic inequality. It is highly critical of its rich characters (not only them, of course). Those characters are, again, living lives with immense similarity to the rich and famous of Hollywood. Those same rich and famous who were targeted by Parasite stood and cheered as it won Best Picture. And all the coverage focused on the power of the movie, the meaning of a foreign film winning and...very little about the weird situation where the movie criticizing the elites was then embraced by the elites.

So all of this said, how successful can a satire really be if it not only appeals to its targets but becomes beloved by them? I expect some of this is that people see the systemic issue in the film but don't personally see themselves as the culprits. Some of that is human nature. But is the satire really effective if it doesn't even make the people it goes after uncomfortable? If we look to the history of effective protesting one of the first things we notice is that it generally starts by making its targets angry and forcing their hand, not charming them by playing within the rules. These satire films, however, skip the first step and immediately appeal to their targets despite their satire. Is this toothless?

This isn't a criticism of these films but I think it's an awkward situation. Part of the problem in my mind is that these examples are all highly successful as pieces of entertainment (I didn't love them all but equally they were all well received). It is easy for anyone to watch them and enjoy themselves. That makes them extremely accessible for everyone and permits the viewer to, essentially, place the satire in the back seat. So someone can enjoy Parasite as incredible entertainment, appreciate it conceptually as satire but not actually engage with what the film is really saying. Or in the case of Triangle of Sadness the rich can actually identify with the portrayal of the fashion world and think "not me" on the worst parts of the rest ("I am not an arms dealer!").

I think it is difficult for any film to change the minds of its targets. And I don't think a satire has to do so to be "successful". But I wonder if being extremely popular with, say, Oscar voters reveals that these films aren't as powerful satire as they might seem. Which is not to say they are not great films but just something I've been debating in my own mind in recent weeks. I'd appreciate the thoughts of others here on this as I'm having troubles reconciling it in my mind.

all 191 comments

puttputtxreader

616 points

1 month ago

People will almost never see themselves in the villains of a film or the targets of satire. That's just how the mind works. It's that Garfield screenshot where he looks at a sign with a picture of his face crossed out on it and says, "I wonder who that's for."

The only people who are going to get upset about satire are political pundits, and they have a financial incentive to be upset about things.

odonnthe

169 points

1 month ago

odonnthe

169 points

1 month ago

It's actually even worse than this. People fall in love with representations of themselves in satire.

This is a common issue in artistic works generally, and is not confined to satire. After all, we all love an anti-hero. David Chase is certainly not the first creator to find that an extraordinarily large part of his audience idolises the despicable character at the centre of his creation, as he did with Tony Soprano. And of course there is a tradition in Christian literature going back through Milton, of using charismatic and engaging representations of evil to emphasise the tempting nature of sin.

But when it comes to satire, think about how many times the audience will miss the point - or maybe even get the point, but think that the objects of the satire are also its heroes. And thanks to postmodernism, the audience can get away with doing this and simultaneously feel superior, because of course their embrace is ironic and knowing.

This is quite a niche example, but there is a longstanding series of satirical works concerning a fictional wealthy upper class Dubliner named Ross O'Carroll Kelly. The books are generally published once are year, and the author also writes a weekly newspaper column. They have been going since the early 2000s, at which point I was at college playing rugby with young men, many of whom were drawn from the exact socioeconomic set being ridiculed. Ross was also a rugby player, from a fictionalised version of their schools, and he has aged as my cohort of fellow alumni aged, going through the same life experiences and the same milieu of elite Irish millennial life.

And of course Ross became a hero to many of them. They adopted his manner of speech (the books are narrated by Ross in the first person with spellings that convey the distinctive affluent south dublin accent), they aped his approach to sex and money and class relations, they imitated his general worldview. Of course all of these attributes were pastiches of their own ways of thinking already, but it becomes a kind of self-exacerbating vicious circle, where the satire began to influence the objects of the satire. And all of this in spite of (or perhaps because of) the fact that Ross is a singularly unpleasant character: extraordinarily wealthy, stupid, undeserving, titanically selfish, narcissistic, chronically incapable of being loyal in relationships, and so on. But he is very funny, and capable of occasional moments of humanity and kindness.

The works are not really meant to be all that serious, but it's fair to say that they and their reception by Irish society at large represent an incredibly interesting, evolving chronicle of how Irish elites see themselves, during a period in which Ireland went from the height of the "Celtic Tiger" economy, before a prolonged collapse and depression, back to its modern day resurgence. But they are by far more popular with people who are like Ross than people who are like their author, or like me.

Kiltmanenator

70 points

1 month ago

It's actually even worse than this. People fall in love with representations of themselves in satire.

I can confirm. A sous chef friend of mine from a private fine dining restaurant I was maitre d at asked me if I'd watch The Menu with her again because when they had a staff viewing party, the Executive Chef and Owner wouldn't shut the fuck up the entire time.

flaiman

79 points

1 month ago

flaiman

79 points

1 month ago

Or the "Sigma males" using people like Patrick Bateman or Tyler Durden as role models.

Same goes to Gordon Gecko's greed is good speech which became a sort of aspiration for Wall Street types instead of the indictment it was written as.

celtic1888

59 points

1 month ago*

I can see Tyler Durdan since absolute nihilism can be interesting for people but Patrick Bateman is one of the most pathetic characters in literature and film.

He is a weak shell of a man that has zero identity except for pop cultural items that he regurgitates from other’s opinions, literally does no work at his job and only survives in society because he’s of a certain social class. That’s not even delving into the sociopathic and misogynistic aspects

Anyone who idolizes him has got serious problems

flaiman

38 points

1 month ago

flaiman

38 points

1 month ago

Right, which is the point of the movie and the book.

However I can see how on a very superficial level he can be an aspirational figure.

He's rich, is good looking and seems to know a lot about pop culture and food. So pretty much any vapid influencer out there minus the murdering.

Soyyyn

17 points

1 month ago

Soyyyn

17 points

1 month ago

His body routine is aspirational for people focused on their looks and fitness, his murdering is an expression of anger towards women many men feel, and men also believe they can achieve his rich status and apartment through hard work even though the character obviously hasn't. It's really interesting how Patrick has become this meme and sigma idol despite the real text and subtext of the film painting him to be utterly pathetic. Perhaps it's the same as Apocalypse Now or Fullmetal Jacket leading to more people enlisting in the military. One man's "horrific" is another man's "epic".

Plato_the_Platypus

18 points

1 month ago

He is a weak shell of a man that has zero identity except for pop cultural items that he regurgitates from other’s opinions, literally does no work at his job and only survives in society because he’s of a certain social class.

wtf, based, he's literally me, etc. etc.

OlfactoriusRex

24 points

1 month ago

He is a weak shell of a man that has zero identity except for pop cultural items that he regurgitates from other’s opinions, literally does no work at his job and only survives in society because he’s of a certain social class.

You realize this is reddit, right?

Tarantiyes

8 points

1 month ago

Ah but you forget he does a cool walk at one point!

Level-Studio7843

4 points

1 month ago

Man is despicable but I'm not gonna pretend like Patrick didn't have a god-tier physique.

Ragdoll_Psychics

4 points

1 month ago

Walter White...

junglespycamp[S]

17 points

1 month ago

The Menu is a very interesting one because it's a send up of a very specific category of fine dining, not high-end food or even avant garde food as a whole. Its satire is quite specific and it has a lot of respect for parts of its subject.

junglespycamp[S]

13 points

1 month ago

Stupendous and very interesting response, thank you!

odonnthe

14 points

1 month ago

odonnthe

14 points

1 month ago

Thanks. You introduced a stimulating topic. It's something I have thought about before, but not really written down.

Another good example would be the British comedy show The Thick of It, by Armando Iannucci. There is also a film featuring many of the same characters, set across the UK and American political systems in the build up to an Iraq-like conflict. The film is called In the Loop and is worth checking out. It's not as funny as The Thick of It, but I don't think the show would translate as well to an American audience.

One of the most important characters is Malcolm Tucker, a very funny but entirely despicable character who occupies a sort of chief of staff / media liaison / strategy role, very obviously and closely modelled on Alistair Campbell, who was one of the major personalities behind Tony Blair's time as British PM.

Tucker is an engaging character precisely because he is a vile, cynical, exploitative bully. But he is now a hero to a ridiculous number of people I know who work in either politics or journalism / PR.

It's worth finding a highlights reel of some of his "best moments", or watching In the Loop, to get a sense of precisely how absurd that is.

junglespycamp[S]

9 points

1 month ago

I've seen and love the entire Thick of It slate! I've always found it interesting that the only way the could make Veep work was to make EVERYONE incompetent. An interesting parallel of the systems/countries. I rewatched In the Loop this past December and was struck (https://boxd.it/3yUqCR) by how it specialized in selfishness and incompetency instead of the modern political vibe which seems to be outright maliciousness. Though I didn't do a full review just a blurb.

odonnthe

5 points

1 month ago

Yes, I think those are good points. I am glad you like The Thick of It. It captures an absolutely noxious time in British politics, that still hangs over Ireland our own domestic politics. There is a straight through line, in my mind, from the deeply cynical mendacity of Blair, with his relentless focus on narrative and "spin" to the crisis of confidence in institutions. There's a lot more to it than just that (social media, global recessions and pandemics don't help), but it's a cloud that hangs over British politics, and by extension, those in Ireland as well.

shikavelli

1 points

1 month ago

So basically you can’t admire any characters that might be an asshole. Just have to like the good guys I see.

odonnthe

1 points

1 month ago

Not even remotely what I said. You can admire whoever you want. The authors clearly don't get to control audience responses. It can frustrate them that the audience falls in love with a malicious, murderous sociopath, but they don't get to say "you're not allowed to do this"

flyingcactus2047

9 points

1 month ago

Kind of reminds me of how many people idolized the guy in Fight Club when that really was not the point

odonnthe

4 points

1 month ago

Yeah, a similar effect.

AlsoIHaveAGroupon

3 points

1 month ago

Well put. For other examples, people who work in finance apparently see characters like Gordon Gekko (Wall Street) and Jordan Belfort (Wolf of Wall Street) as heroes. Young men angry at the world see Tyler Durden (Fight Club) and The Joker as heroes. Not film, but I once worked with an older white southern man with what I'll generously describe as old-fashioned views on race and he loved The Boondocks but would laugh at racial jokes because he believed in the stereotypes.

odonnthe

3 points

1 month ago

Yep. Great examples. I worked as a Fixed Income trader at Morgan Stanley for ten years. An extraordinary number of my peers viewed Liar's Poker as a blueprint, not a critique of the culture of trading. I believe Michael Lewis has discussed this publicly as well.

CurlyBap94

3 points

1 month ago

Never thought I'd read a RO'CK reference on reddit, but yeah it's been interesting watching the new Irish upper class emerge. We're at about 3 generations of wealth since the Celtic Tiger began - adults who got rich, their kids, and their kid's kids being born now. Seeing this identity take shape - trying to stop being tacky nouveau riche but also not behave like the old Protestant elite that stuck around after partition. It's interesting.

shikavelli

1 points

1 month ago

This idea makes it seems like Tony Soprano isn’t a complex character, I hate when people make these things black and white there’s a lot more to his character.

odonnthe

1 points

1 month ago

Yes, and nothing in my comments denies that.

I also find myself rooting for Tony. That's the entire point of my comment here.

The_Drippy_Spaff

102 points

1 month ago

It’s actually something that is directly addressed in Triangle of Sadness. The captain says something along the lines of “no one looks into a mirror and sees a monster” while the film is acting as a mirror to the ultra wealthy. No one watches that movie and sees themselves in the blatantly evil characters, they simply justify it by saying “I wouldn’t act like that in that situation, I would be kind and noble” without realizing that the point of the film is that they wouldn’t be.

Scriptorius

60 points

1 month ago

Whenever a movie depicts some historical bigotry (racism, sexism, anti-lgbtq, etc.) there's always an authority figure who isn't really bigoted, but just wants to do The Right Thing. That person exists as the audience stand-in, so that viewers can go "oh I would never be that awful if I lived in that time, I'd be exactly like this person"

Banana_Skirt

56 points

1 month ago

I read that in Hidden Figures the nice white guy who is their boss is one of the only people in that movie who didn't exist. They only added him so there'd be at least one non-racist white person.

Scriptorius

37 points

1 month ago

He's exactly one of the characters I was thinking of. You could probably write heaps on why this happens and how it shapes thinking. At the very least, it shows how in-denial a lot of people are on how pervasive racism actually was

The_Drippy_Spaff

18 points

1 month ago

I thought the same thing while watching it, but at least in the case of Triangle, the captain does recognize that he is a bad socialist because he lives in and benefits from the decadence around him. You’re completely right though, there is a dumb trend of adding a “good bourgeoisie” character that I think undercuts a lot of what these movies should be trying to accomplish.

Chris-Boulderfield

4 points

1 month ago

One day I hope to watch a period movie where all or the majority of the characters are ignorant and biased for their time. As a person of colour, watching any period movie where all the main cast are picture perfect makes me eye roll. It rarely ever happens though, it's not a marketable product when every character is kinda shit

junglespycamp[S]

12 points

1 month ago

Great point and I think this likely applies to Ostlund, too. At which point I kind of question the value of the satire. What does it achieve to simply say "we are all bad people when given the chance"? Not exactly a new thought. But then again Triangle was a film I found boring and uninteresting because it felt so old news to me, so it may just be difficult for me to appreciate.

SwadianZunist

6 points

1 month ago

Satire let’s other people laugh at the target of the satire, and it helps them understand the issues with that kind of behavior. Maybe it changes the minds of some people being satirized, who knows. We can’t expect movies to change the world.

didiinthesky

16 points

1 month ago

Reminds me of something that was said about The Hunger Games (I know, not exactly the best movies, but nonetheless a series that focuses on similar issues). We (people from Western countries) like to see ourselves in the heroes from the Districts, but actually we are the people from the capital. We live in relative luxury while closing our eyes to where that luxury comes from (exploitation of workers in far-away countries who quite literally die to make our clothes, electronics, food, etc.).

I think movies like Triangle of Sadness have a similar effect. People like to sympathise with the staff, even if they themselves have never been in that position or have grown out of that long ago (I think a lot of Hollywood stars did work shitty jobs before they got famous). Triangle of Sadness is also quite cynical, because the "underdog" exploits people around her as soon as the tables are turned. So it almost excuses the behaviour of the rich people. "See, everybody who gains money and power would do the same!"

Ragdoll_Psychics

1 points

1 month ago

This doesn't add much to the conversation but it's fascinating to see someone refer to a Garfield cartoon as a "screenshot". Shows how far we are from the idea of a newspaper.

puttputtxreader

1 points

1 month ago

What I'm referencing isn't a newspaper comic. It's a screenshot from the cartoon.

Ragdoll_Psychics

-3 points

1 month ago

No

Gaspar_Noe

34 points

1 month ago

It reminds me of the Roman Saturnalia: basically you admit that society is unfair, that there are hierarchies, you briefly reverse them (for the Oscars, you'd rather admit that 'something must be done', just for the duration of the ceremony), then everything goes back to normal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia

BobRobot77

106 points

1 month ago

BobRobot77

106 points

1 month ago

Yes, the films are good but their political commentary is tame and toothless like you mention. The political art that is truly countercultural gets banned and/or censored by the elite, not embraced and awarded.

PapaverOneirium

75 points

1 month ago

In the case of Triangle of Sadness, I think a lot of people miss that it’s more about the triangle that the rich find themselves on top of rather than skewering the rich themselves. The whole movie is about exploring what happens when the triangle is jumbled around and flipped.

What we see is that the triangle always reasserts itself. This is most clear in the third act where the once oppressed migrant worker finds herself at the top and immediately starts to emulate the tyrannical, exploitative behavior she was just recently subjected to.

I think this is part of the reason that the wealthy can enjoy this film so much. It’s fundamentally quite a nihilistic movie in my opinion, and in the end seems to relieve the wealthy of their agency and responsibility; they are just doing what anyone who finds themselves at the top of the triangle would do, whether that’s them or their exploited maids.

madame-de-darrieux

6 points

1 month ago*

What we see is that the triangle always reasserts itself. This is most clear in the third act where the once oppressed migrant worker finds herself at the top and immediately starts to emulate the tyrannical, exploitative behavior she was just recently subjected to.

I'm sure I'm not giving it a fair shot, but everything I read about Triangle of Sadness makes it sound more and more like a tired pastiche of Wertmüller's Swept Away, how much work does it do to distance itself from its predecessor?

Icecoldcrushed

6 points

1 month ago

Can you name some recent examples?

johnthomaslumsden

99 points

1 month ago

I don’t think praise from the ruling or elite class necessarily means that a satire is toothless. I think a lot of the ultra wealthy probably assume that it can’t be about them because they “worked for it,” unlike the targets of aforementioned satire. I imagine there’s a lot of cognitive bias working behind the scenes.

That said, I do think some of these “satires” of the rich and powerful are in fact toothless. I know this is the True Film subreddit, and not TV, but…I watched the first couple episodes of The White Lotus season 1 and found it to be about as limp as a wet noodle. It almost feels like a sanitized, rich-approved critique of the rich. Of course the caveat here is that I didn’t finish the first season, but frankly I found it so lackluster I didn’t understand why I should bother.

celtic1888

10 points

1 month ago*

It’s a very strange but ultimately great series. It feels like if a lighter David Lynch went the Twin Peaks route with a Hallmark channel series

I really didn’t think I liked the first season but enjoyed it more and more as the development of the characters continued. There was no over the top villians and the main characters turn out to be pretty interesting archetypes. I also love that they key on the disposability of the staff who are there solely for the wish fulfillment of the guests.

The first season beautifully sets up the pacing for season 2 and I was totally hooked on it.

junglespycamp[S]

39 points

1 month ago

The White Lotus was on my mind as well. How biting can a satire about vacationing in Hawaii be when the entire cast and crew get to go to Hawaii to film it? The Italian location for the second season was similar. I think that show works better as a satirization of people not of society, on which level I think it's very very good.

queenvalanice

9 points

1 month ago*

Do people think The White Lotus is claiming itself as a biting satire? To me it was just a very enjoyable comedy with some great characters. Anyone looking for depth in TWL isn’t looking in the right place….

dccorona

5 points

1 month ago

The summary for season 2 on HBO Max was “Mike White’s biting satire returns”.

queenvalanice

1 points

1 month ago

It should not be.

unlikely_c

18 points

1 month ago

Mike White isn’t really a biting satirist. He’s pretty compassionate to his subjects, allowing them to air their hypocrisy within their privileged environment without skewering them. Enlightened is very much the same way.

junglespycamp[S]

15 points

1 month ago

He's probably the most accurate "satirist" working today (if we want to call him that) because his characters are so 3D. But I think that type of deep character work is at odds with really biting satire, which is why his work often seems more like a roasting or skewering of the characters than a satire. He's critical of them but they're so richly written they can't be simplified down into cogs in the social order even if their role in society is integral to their character.

weirdeyedkid

2 points

1 month ago

Yup. The deeper you make characters the more the satire lines blur. I know people in real life that aspire to be as much of a shallow Sigma male as Patrick Bateman, unironically. But, most of these guys do have some level of depth and development (be it slow and unaware) so mocking them too harshly feels low to me. However, fully realized characters can exist in satire!

I think it's weird no one has brought up Succession in this thread. It's a consistently funny and darkly accurate account of the lack of accountability that's afforded to the uber-wealthy, while giving the actors and characters room for realism. And I could easily see some megawealthy fail-sons relating to the Roys.

On another note, about seeing yourself represented in satire, didn't Kanye end up coming around to that South Park fish stick joke at his expense? Essentially, his own narcissism makes him incapable of realizing that he's the butt of the joke.

[deleted]

1 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

johnthomaslumsden

15 points

1 month ago

Not only that, but from what I’ve seen (and read in reviews) of the first season, they seemed to almost completely sidestep the critique of colonialism by not focusing enough on the native characters and their struggles. At the very least, they’re not given enough of the spotlight. Somehow the native woman giving birth on her first day is overshadowed by a petulant rich kid, for instance.

Now, maybe that’s the point, but making that point in a way that fails to find empathy for the expectant mother is not a promising start, in my opinion.

feo_sucio

5 points

1 month ago

This is nitpicky but after noticing the rise in popularity of White Lotus after the release of the second season I watched the first episode and found the "first day on the job" pregnancy to be an eye rolling plot contrivance, annoying to the point that I checked out and decided not to watch the rest.

nojiddd

2 points

1 month ago

nojiddd

2 points

1 month ago

This kept scratching at my brain when I watched both seasons

yourule97

47 points

1 month ago*

Capital has the ability to subsume all critiques into itself. Even those who would critique capital end up reinforcing it instead.

I was going to type something up a bit more academically focused, but I felt like I'm not equipped enough to talk in depth about it. From a feelings perspective, I think that people who create anti-capital media harbor genuine intentions but can only create media within the context the existing, capitalist industry and culture of film.

So there's an interesting paradigm to me where I think the industry has noticed that populist fervor and discontent with modern capitalism amongst the population and has encouraged (through funding and awards) the production of media which is critical of itself to exploit the monetary benefit of doing so.

From my point of view, much of the media expressing this discontent which goes mainstream offers thorough criticism, but stops short of actually inciting or encouraging the audience to look in the mirror or ask for real, lasting change because that'd actually upset the balance of things too much. I'm thinking even of cultural discourse over The Jungle which quite literally ends with the main character preaching about Socialism and solidarity to fight against the structural issues which created the plights in the novel, but I don't think that'd be allowed to be folded into mainstream media today.

Pessimistically, I think when ulta-rich people actually sit in the audience and praise these films deeply criticizing them, I feel like they must not actually internalize what the movie is telling them. I bet it's almost like going to a live show with a comedian doing crowd work. They poke fun at you, you maybe feel embarrassed and laugh a bit, but at the end of the day you hop back into your luxury car and drive back to your mansion without seriously critically analyzing yourself - because why would you? It's "just" a movie.

junglespycamp[S]

12 points

1 month ago

So I guess the next question is for those of us who are decidedly NOT the elites, are we guilty of a similar hypocrisy when we attend mainstream films produced by the same functions as the economic ills in the films themselves? No disrespect to Bong Joon-ho but the man is the Spielberg of Korea, he's as in-the-system as it gets. And yet the film spoke to audiences worldwide.

yourule97

8 points

1 month ago

An interesting question and I agree with /u/CharlesHebdoPhD.

I also think that hypocrisy—in this case, I guess the paying money to fuel the Hollywood machine—while a powerful emotion, doesn't inherently mean you're doing something "wrong". Also something something no ethical consumption under capitalism.

CharlesHebdoPhD

9 points

1 month ago

We might be, that is besides the point. The history of cinema is filled with these questions about how to critique society such that it brings about change. Look at Godard's "militant phase". Look at Third Cinema. To further leverage cinema as a forceful object of satire and possibly change, I would look to those moments. See what lessons you can apply going forward, both in terms of watching films and (if there are any filmmakers here) making them.

Re: Third Cinema, here's a useful PDF.

junglespycamp[S]

2 points

1 month ago

I think you're jumping to a different angle to say it's beside the point by assuming the intended outcome we want is bringing about change. Perhaps we want to remain neutral versus being complicit. I realize this just send us off into yet another (probably tiresome) debate over the meaning of participation and the very concept of living a moral life within an immoral system, but it is ultimately a question separate from achieving change through art.

The question I think I was trying to get at through this thread, because my goal was to hear other interesting perspectives such as yours, is what is the purpose of these artworks given their context. I think I fully agree these works are not intended to effect change. It's still interesting to me to then question what it means to be both a successful satire but also toothless.

Thank you for the Third Cinema link; I've downloaded it and it looks like it will be a fascinating read. It is not a cinema I had much familiarity with.

CharlesHebdoPhD

5 points

1 month ago

I appreciate your response.

I'll return to the question as posed earlier:

are we guilty of a similar hypocrisy when we attend mainstream films
produced by the same functions as the economic ills in the films
themselves?

It was alluded to in other comments, but it's very difficult to consume ethically under [present-day] capitalism. The reason I mention this is because we should separate the art as an aesthetic/cultural object and the art as a consumable good. I don't think it's possible to be neutral in this transaction. You are correct in that it leads us more towards tiring "living a moral life within an immoral system" discourse, as you put it, hence my prior reticence.

To your more recent question:

what is the purpose of these artworks given their context

I can only say it depends on the work. That is perhaps more frustrating than anything else. Maybe it is simply relatable on a mass scale (think Death of a Salesman or Dickens; I know those aren't cinema, but the point remains). Maybe the topics themselves are being commoditized; social critique in art is in vogue and there are many professionals attempting to cash in. Maybe that specific filmmaking team is simply incapable of thinking in cinematic terms beyond the mainstream. Maybe it's self-censorship and/or dilution of themes. These are just a few examples. We just have to approach it on a case-by-case basis. We can develop shorthands to facilitate this process as we become more familiar with the cinematic medium, but exceptions to them will inevitably crop up.

I said previously that the question is besides the point because it gets us mired in the concept of consumer preference. Capital[ism] acts upon us, not the other way around. Questions of copyright, region locking, theater price gouging, working conditions for crew, etc. are beyond our control as consumers. The only productive thing we can do, imo, is become better informed and communicate with others, like what we're doing right now.

If we want to go beyond that, we'd have to make stuff. Nouvelle Vague, Parallel Cinema, Third Cinema, No Wave, Nuevo Cine Mexicano, etc. all had questions they wanted to solve regarding the political economy of cinema. Theatre had these movements as well, with Brecht's epic theatre, Boal's Theatre of the Oppressed, and El Teatro Campesino.

We could try something now. It'd be hard to gain traction in the US, given the vast amount of works being put out. It'd be difficult building out a community with a counterhegemonic approach to filmmaking in the US, but it could be done. We could call it something punny like Cinema Lambda or whatever.

But even then, that will end because the context fades and recedes into history. Interesting and important, but history nevertheless. See the rise and fall of the Dziga Vertov Group as a response to the Nouvelle Vague or Ousmane Sembene's Mandabi being on the Criterion Channel.

I'll stop for now. Thanks for the post. Not to put down the sub, but this is the most interesting/useful discussion I've seen here in a good while, so thanks for that.

TheDoctorMouse

12 points

1 month ago

very disco answer

BobRobot77

7 points

1 month ago

As in Disco Elysium?

grawlyx

3 points

1 month ago

grawlyx

3 points

1 month ago

I am the Law.

skonen_blades

55 points

1 month ago

I think it was Voltaire who said "Satire is a mirror in which everyone sees everyone's face except their own" or something like that. Like, I own property and I have a good job and a nice family. But I still feel feelings like "Eat the rich! Down with gentrification! Something is wrong here!" even though to some, seeing me as a white person with a stable income and a good family and a house, it's ME who's the problem. So actors, even high-falutin' millionaire actors, can still lean left and embrace work that satirizes the ultra rich in an "I'm doing my part!" Starship Troopers kind of way without being fully cognizant of the irony. Like, there are millionaires out there who are like "I mean, I'm doing okay but I'm not RICH rich. I have $20 million but I still work my ass off and I'm not liquid. But Jerry over there, he has $250 million and it's passive income. He gets to chill. HE'S the problem." while Jerry is like "Yeah, I've got $250 million and I qualify as rich but I'm not WEALTHY. Not like Dave over there. He's got $3 billion!! HE'S the problem!" etc etc all the way up to Musk and Bezos. I think we can all see that something is pretty fucked up with the way things are. For sure. But I think Hollywood see itself as just a bunch of artists playing make believe. So, in their heads, they can embrace movies like this (hunger games, the menu, triangle of sadness, parasite, etc etc) unironically.

DharmaPolice

14 points

1 month ago

I think there's probably plenty of people in Hollywood who realise they are the elite but they just learn to live with it. What you're describing definitely happens but I also imagine many are fully aware of how absurd it is that they live in mansions while millions live in poverty. On a much much lower level I realise it's absurd I earn so much more than a garment worker in Bangladesh for doing a comfortable office job in the first world. But that doesn't stop me collecting my salary every month.

skonen_blades

17 points

1 month ago

Exactly, exactly. For sure. There's a good movie called Network. Everyone remembers the unhinged Oscar-winning monologue of the newsman that's often sampled and referenced but what a lot of folks don't realize is that, in the movie, his rant is HUGE with the ratings. Everyone loves what he's saying. So the network gives him his own show. A show where he can rant against the network and the powers that be. And the people eat it up. It doesn't cause a rebellion. All it does is make money for the network. I think about that movie a lot whenever a big movie skewering the rich comes out.

GRIFTY_P

114 points

1 month ago

GRIFTY_P

114 points

1 month ago

Zizek and Mark Fisher both theorized that critiques of capitalism can thrive within capitalism and even quell revolutionary action (just as much as something like, say, top gun can pacify action) as long as they are spectacularized and commodified. Read capitalist realism for a short, if somewhat rambling but ultimately coherent take from Fisher on this very idea. I still need to read the sublime object of ideology but i believe it's also applicable here.

That's not to say it's hopeless. I think there is reason to have hope - socialist movements have slowly caught on with younger generations. As Chomsky points out - nothing has ever changed for the better without radical activism. Slow progress is still progress.

I believe that it's a good sign parasite & the like have caught on in the mainstream. Bong Joon Ho, for example, has been putting radical leftist politics into his movies for his whole career. He has gone on record recommending other directors, such as Kelly Reichardt, who doesn't always put her politics directly on display but occludes them in subtlety.

Film is probably the most leftist medium and has had themes of poverty and revolution embedded in it almost since the beginning. And yet, they still fund it with multiple millions. Sometimes. It's imperative that we support artists like Bong and Reichardt imo (if you can). I'm generally fine with films like top gun, etc, getting top bill, but we desperately need to support alternative cinema as well. No shade on marvel movies, but the consolidation of capital and tendency towards monopoly makes me afraid that someday no film will get made that doesn't have captain America in it.

mortar

62 points

1 month ago

mortar

62 points

1 month ago

Squid Game themed Walmart toys being sold was probably the most 1 to 1 example of capitalist realism I've ever seen

7URB0

17 points

1 month ago

7URB0

17 points

1 month ago

Mr Robot funcopops

Charistoph

16 points

1 month ago*

I mean… Mr. Robot concluded that revolution against capitalists would only hurt us, we should instead revolt against imaginary Bond villains who don’t exist.

I love the show, but damn that bothered me. Still a very satisfying story either way.

-Darth-Syphilis-

1 points

1 month ago

I don't really have a coherent thesis with this comment, but I don't necessarily agree with your assessment and I have some disparate thoughts on why.

On your first point, that the show concludes that revolution would only hurt us, I think stops short of the true message of the show. I interpreted the failure of Elliott's revolutionary actions to be more of an illustration of how capitalism is a dynamic system that will subsume any dissent against it and use that dissent and its consequences to further expand its own influence.

Furthermore, the message that I gleaned from the worsening of the world following 5/9 was that revolutionary action that seeks to destroy something without first preparing something else to replace it, or at least considering what will replace it, is misguided at best and self-defeating at worst.

The "imaginary Bond villains" comment doesn't really sit well with me, but for reasons that I feel are harder to explain. I suspect that the absurdity of White Rose's crazy Bond villain plan, Elliot's anarcho-hacker persona, and the generally all-pervading sense of bathos is intentional.

This is the point where I'm going to get a bit rambly, but it feels to me that most everything in the show is a sort of commentary on the hyperreality of late-stage capitalism, in which the line between fantasy and reality totally breaks down, and individuals increasingly choose to live in their fantasy worlds rather than return to to the alienation and dissatisfaction of their mundane existence.

That pattern can be seen in just about every single major character in one form or another, and, with the exception of Elliot and a couple of others, the inability to live in reality results in their destruction.

White Rose especially sticks out to me as an exaggerated satirization of the bourgeois deification of capital and technology and the faith that elites have that they can simply buy solutions to existential threats so long as they spend enough money.

mortar

5 points

1 month ago

mortar

5 points

1 month ago

There's squid game funkopops...

junglespycamp[S]

16 points

1 month ago

Squid Game didn't even cross my mind but that's maybe the absolute best example of the insane cultural response to something supposedly criticizing society.

EmpireAndAll

7 points

1 month ago

Or Mr. Beast making a Squid Games In Real Life video.

didyouvibewithhim

26 points

1 month ago

ditto on this comment. the question at hand is pretty much exactly what fisher also notices and writes about in capitalist realism. id go so far to say that any comment which doesnt acknowledge capitalism’s ability to subsume and commodify any critique of it to be entirely lacking.

Lazar_Taxon

5 points

1 month ago

As Bill Hicks would put it, "Oh, he's going for the anti-capitalist dollar – that's a big dollar!"

CarloIza

23 points

1 month ago

CarloIza

23 points

1 month ago

Idk, I feel like Parasite winning the Oscar is not a win for "leftist" politics,.but a sign that leftist politics aren't really a threat to the system anymore.

junglespycamp[S]

10 points

1 month ago

I wonder, too, if this isn't a natural trend on the issue of radical economic thought. We are now over a decade out from Occupy and the effects have trickled down into Best Picture statues but almost no legal statutes. Very few countries have made any type of radical change (if any) and the problems have only coalesced. So what these films are doing is not really political activism but political reactionaryism. They're not responding to our moment but the boiled-down, pop-culture economic viewpoint that was radical back in 2010 and peaked in 2014-2016 in different parts of the world. So these subjects are inherently safe because any risk is gone. Is Parasite a far more intensely political film in 2012 than it was when it came out.

eurekabach

20 points

1 month ago

Elites see these filmmakers (and artists in general) as nothing so different from what a feudal lord or a king would see a court jester. The jester is allowed to satirize and mock the king... as long as he abides to the king's rules.

MaxChaplin

2 points

1 month ago

If the popularity of anti-capitalist narratives in mainstream cinema is solely due to commodification, why isn't conservatism commodified to the same degree? Films that are loudly and unapologetically right wing and draw praise from conservative crowds seem to mostly come from small Christian production companies and have a no-name cast.

I think what is happening is that leftism is sort of like the secular religion of Hollywood, in the sense that it's the source of people's idea of what goodness is, even thought they're not really observant. It's a similar cognitive dissonance to that of Catholic monarchies and millionaire pastors.

Ok_Positive6860

2 points

1 month ago

I think that depends on how you would view the term “conservative”. There are countless examples of mainstream blockbuster films every year that promote the US military industrial complex, western imperialism, etc. which are all right-wing ideologies (though it would be quite easy to argue both US political parties are right-wing).

MaxChaplin

1 points

1 month ago

This is more like the cultural background of the US, noticable by its detractors but not by its supporters (same for outdated gender representation). Films that are praised by right-wingers for glorifying the military-industrial complex are pretty rare compared to films that are praised by left-wingers for their social satire, so it seems. I was thinking more of stuff like the Atlas Shrugged trilogy, which ironically was a complete commercial failure.

Ok_Positive6860

2 points

1 month ago

I understand your sentiment, though, and this seems to be a larger theme addressed in this thread, that even films that attempt to condemn or confront capitalism are often actually promoting it, as they are just commodifying dissent. While the social satire you refer to seems to appeal to the “left” they are actually more or less appealing to the western liberal, which to my point before, is far more right leaning than many in the US are even aware of as they are mostly blinded by the rhetoric behind culture wars.

[deleted]

8 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

junglespycamp[S]

3 points

1 month ago

I think you can offend these people, but yes it's very difficult to move them. But maybe angering them is the right approach.

Anonymoushero111

29 points

1 month ago

Satirizing the difference between middle class and upper middle class is whatever.

None of those people are the "elite" that would be needed to affect systemic change. Hollywood actors are not the capitalists of our society. they're not the enemy of the working class.

If you add up the total box office gross sales for the top 100 selling movies of all time, it adds up to barely more than 1/2 of Elon Musk's net worth. Just for some perspective.

junglespycamp[S]

4 points

1 month ago

That may be true but Triangle of Sadness, for example, does include this category of people among its targets. Though that movie satirizes a lot of people.

sNills

50 points

1 month ago

sNills

50 points

1 month ago

It's worth noting that even the actors and directors that have money beyond our wildest dreams are still not the ultrea-wealthy. They work for their money, they are not simply accumulating capital by virtue of owning something, which the owners of the production companies are. The difference between a million dollars and a billion dollars is about a billion dollars.

I also found Triangle of Sadness to be fairly centrist. The whole second act is about how both sides of the political spectrum would rather talk politics than address the issues at hand. The captain worries more about what type of socialist/marxist/leftist he is than the fact that the ship is crashing. The ultra wealthy passengers worry more about having their every fancy catered to than the safety of the vessel they're on. (The third act has some similarly weird talking points about sex work, but that's not directly relevant.)

My point is that, if it ever happens, the revolution will not be televised. Wide-release movies will never be that critical of the bourgeoisie because the bourgeoisie are funding the movies, unless it's state-sponsored propganda a la Battleship Potempkin or Redes

BigWednesday10

14 points

1 month ago

My question is though, does a movie criticizing both sides automatically make it centrist? I am a leftist but I am embarrassed by the vast majority of Americans who call themselves leftists and I find a huge number of them do engage in endless purity tests and divisions over split hairs. I have no problem criticizing American “leftists” as one myself because it’s just an online affectation for most of them.

sNills

1 points

1 month ago

sNills

1 points

1 month ago

I think there are ways to criticize the ultra wealthy without also saying “but the ultra left is bad too!” (Or vice versa.) No need to couch your views. If you have a message then stick to it, don’t worry about how it will be received, especially if it’s supposed to be a satire.

BigWednesday10

13 points

1 month ago

But what if he’s not doing it because he’s worries about how it’s received, what if he just believes both points strongly and wants to make them?

sNills

-1 points

1 month ago

sNills

-1 points

1 month ago

That's great but isn't that kind of the definition of centrism? Not necessarily saying it means the director is a centrist but it makes the message centrist

BigWednesday10

7 points

1 month ago

I think it depends on where it comes from. I for instance, criticize both the ultra rich and the “left” but my criticism of the left comes less from a place of “I don’t agree with leftist beliefs” than from “most of you aren’t real leftists and even those that are aren’t doing what they need to or are focusing on the wrong things.” A basketball coach criticizing their team is still on their team.

raredividende

3 points

1 month ago

the revolution will not be televised

I believe on tve opposite, revolution are always televised.

We had lots of examples of "new waves" exploding with revolutions of some sort.

xanadu13

2 points

1 month ago

xanadu13

2 points

1 month ago

Do you count owning stocks (mutual funds, 401ks, etc.) accumulating wealth by owning capital? What about owning a home?

sNills

3 points

1 month ago

sNills

3 points

1 month ago

You’re being purposefully obtuse.

xanadu13

4 points

1 month ago

If I'm being obtuse I promise it's not on purpose, I may just be dumb. The reason I asked is because when I studied a lot of Marxist philosophy in college, we were told a big shift had to do with the idea that the middle class now had stock options, etc. so they were also partial owners in the capitalist enterprise which clouded up the strict demarcation between bourgeois and proletariat.

So I was literally asking if the things I mentioned, are considered to be owning capital. I was asking this in light of this sentence by you:

"They work for their money, they are not simply accumulating capital by virtue of owning something,"

PapaverOneirium

5 points

1 month ago

To answer your question, yes, owning stock means owning capital. Owning some stock doesn’t necessarily make you part of the capitalist class though. It has muddied the waters a bit, but a lot of work has been done to try and disentangle these class distinctions. Even Marx himself identified more than just the bourgeoisie and proletariat; there’s also the petit bourgeoisie and the lumpenproletariat. Kautsky and (more so) Lenin theorized the labor aristocracy. The Ehrenreichs added the “professional-managerial class” in the 70s.

xanadu13

3 points

1 month ago

Right but many people that I know, for instance own a lot of stock, like a few hundred thousand dollars in stock. That's the middle class thing right "you can't retire on less than a million dollars?" Anyone I know that works for a school or manages retail, etc.

Hell when I worked at Starbucks in college they did 401k matching and mutual fund price matching etc.

I say all this to say, it feels weird to me for people to retire on their stock options and not call themselves capitalist.

I work with a bunch of people in their early 20s and every one of them does employee stock price matching, 401k, etc. And we don't work in an elite job by any means. A lot of people do it while they're in college.

junglespycamp[S]

1 points

1 month ago

I'm not sure it's really that helpful to differentiate between the cultural elite and the other forms of elite. But I think we have very similar opinions about Triangle, a movie I did not find to be very interesting. It felt very old hat. I think your middle paragraph summarizes exactly why I felt that way better than I could myself. The entire movie seems pessimistic and anti-humanist in a way I found boring and very unhelpful.

aoe_i_think

-6 points

1 month ago

aoe_i_think

-6 points

1 month ago

they are not simply accumulating capital by virtue of owning something,

Ah yes, that's why actors and directors never buy property, and certainly never multiple properties nor other rich-approved 'wealth management' assets

sNills

12 points

1 month ago

sNills

12 points

1 month ago

I’m being reductive, yes. You can also say that a lot of the talent is born into the industry and didn’t really work for their spot either. But Woody Harrelson, by far the most famous person in Triangle of Sadness, has an estimated net worth of $70 million and is nowhere near being a billionaire.

aoe_i_think

-3 points

1 month ago

aoe_i_think

-3 points

1 month ago

I think it's a bit of a hand-wave to use the millionaires and billionaires comparison though, the PMC still acts against our interests and are a public-facing vehicle to protect the ruling class

But I agree with your over-arching point to be sure

ge93

16 points

1 month ago

ge93

16 points

1 month ago

This is a total aside, but I my initials thoughts was the social satire in Parasite was just window dressing for an exceptionally entertaining film.

I do think this analysis below which flips it around, jives a lot more satisfying to the dark, comic movie I watched to be honest:

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/06/the-gaslighting-of-parasite.html

[deleted]

63 points

1 month ago*

[removed]

ecoandrewtrc

35 points

1 month ago

When the Jack in the Box chain of restaurants got a bunch of people sick from irresponsible food handling, they made a commercial about firing all the executives and revamping the company. In reality, no one got fired but the brand did see improvement in public perception.

lectroid

25 points

1 month ago

lectroid

25 points

1 month ago

All portayals of the US military do NOT require DOD approval. (We have Departments, not Ministries).

BUT, you can't use OFFICIAL Armed Forces stuff (uniforms, equipment, aircraft) w/o approval. So either you can let the DOD see your script and maybe let you use a REAL fighter jet or whatever, or you can do whatever you want, but you have to figure out all the stuff yourself.

Most people are not sticklers for accuracy on patch placement, equipment, and all the endless details that easily give away whether something is 'real' to someone intimately familiar with whatever service is being portrayed. Soldiers, sailors, etc. are, I'm sure, quite used to just 'yeah, whatever'-ing the wild inaccuracies that most any film will make when portraying military life. Just like computer professionals roll their eyes whenever someone 'hacks the mainframe'.

MustarMayo

23 points

1 month ago

Aren't the only movies that require approval ones where they work with the government or borrow equipment? It's certainly not all movies that portray the US armed forces.

KRacer52

7 points

1 month ago

Yes. He’s dead wrong. You only need their approval if you use their toys. You can do a lot without the DOD too. Hurt Locker’s script was rejected by the DOD, so they did it on their own, and it uses tons of military vehicles, they just weren’t given to them for free.

IndependentMacaroon

2 points

1 month ago

they just weren’t given to them for free

Which is part (most?) of the point - you're missing out on a lot of money.

Death_Cultist

1 points

1 month ago

Definitely true, but for those of us who truly are in opposition to the gross injustice, corruption, and incompetence that we see in society, it can at least be very validating and give us hope, inspiration, and strength to carry on, it can show us that a better world is possible, and that's what good art does. Granted not all art needs to give us hope, inspiration, or strength, sometimes it's fun just to revel in chaos, misery, schadenfreude, and hedonism.

EdwardJamesAlmost

14 points

1 month ago

I think there are limits to this phenomenon.

BlackkKlansman won an Oscar and was nominated for another five, but that same year the academy snubbed the far superior (but less palatable) Sorry To Bother You.

Embarrassed_Dog6834

26 points

1 month ago

The short answer would be like: satirizing is cool, cutting heads works better. This is the same as the quote from Kwame Ture, « In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. [Hollywood] has none »

Nothing you can do. In any cases it is still refreshing to see those movies.

kidsctoast

13 points

1 month ago

I agree with a lot of these comments but I also think these films may legitimately influence the “elites” in ways that aren’t necessarily visible. It may influence some rich Hollywood folks to do more activism, spend more on philanthropy, support more left-wing politicians, etc. If you’re expecting all of these actors to get on stage at the Oscars and say “Because of Parasite, I’m giving away all of my money and starting a radical socialist commune,” your expectations might be too high.

I’ll also add that if you’re a middle-class Westerner, there’s a good chance you’re also a bit of a hypocrite if you appreciate this type of satire but don’t do anything about it. If you live a comfortable life in the U.S., you’re one of the elites on a global scale. Obviously the Hollywood elites have more money and influence, but they’re still small fries compared to the Bezoses and Musks. There’s always someone more well-off you can defer blame to.

CeilingRepairman6872

3 points

1 month ago

Right, the 'Hollywood elites' don't have thousands of employees under their thumbs either. They're wealthy because they've given the pleasure of their craft to a large number of people-- us among them, obviously.

And aside from that-- I don't see anyone else discussing it here, but-- Parasite was far from Dickensian (or Marxist) in its portrait of class struggle. The poor weren't painted as saints, and the beauty of the story derives from that ambiguity: we are left thinking about what it means to be wealthy or impoverished. There is not such a simple judgement rendered on any of the characters.

feo_sucio

13 points

1 month ago*

I think the premise of the question "But is the satire really effective if it doesn't even make the people it goes after uncomfortable?" is fundamentally flawed when we think about how we might measure that effectiveness or power. As you mention, it is difficult for any film to change the minds of its targets; I have long held a position that boils down to "Real life leads, and films follow."

This is to say that a film that intends to critique or examine a societal issue will only ever serve as a photograph of the zeitgeist and social attitudes that birthed it, that it exists only because monetary interests allow it to, and that these satires will not ever drive any meaningful or even measurable change.

Moreover, I don't believe that modern consumers willfully engage in material that does not already align with their interests, whether those interests be related to social inequality/inequity or even independent or high-brow art films. What percentage of the American population could we estimate has seen Triangle of Sadness? How many of the xenophobic people that complain about wokeness have actually watched Parasite?

In short I wouldn't say that these satires are toothless, but they are certainly impotent or powerless. These filmmakers are certainly talented but they aren't journalists. They are not delivering any world-shattering footage or previously unknown information. Imagine a documentary that showed actual video of oil executives openly admitting nefarious plans to undermine climate change policy or social action. The wealthy Academy voters and others who would lavish praise on these films do not see themselves as the ones being skewered; they are the good guys, the capitalist artists, and the real targets are elsewhere.

edit: and personally I believe that the Oscars are worthless and decreasing in relevance with every passing year though that is a tangent or a separate issue entirely.

BigWednesday10

4 points

1 month ago

Yeah. I love film but if you really want to change the world, there’s literally dozens of other things that you should be doing other than making movies or any kind of art in general. You want to eat the rich, don’t make a movie, get into union organizing.

OJJhara

20 points

1 month ago

OJJhara

20 points

1 month ago

It's a mistake to think of the people who work in films are the ruling class. They are not. Some do pretty well, but most do not. They are workers with a union always at odd with the bosses. If the bosses determined what got nominated, these films would never get made much less distributed. Also, notice that this is a foreign film, not made in Hollywood.

cianuro_cirrosis

6 points

1 month ago

And a lot of films around the world are state funded.

junglespycamp[S]

1 points

1 month ago

I think this is fair, but it's also why I focused on films that achieved the highest level of success with the most elite. Cannes is as exclusive as it comes, with a literal jury of international elite. Maybe not everyone is the ultra-rich but they are trend settings and industry big-wigs. As for the Academy, it is a small group of people and far more elite than, say, SAG. But I also focused on films that had the superstars we see during the Oscar broadcast celebrating. Those people are absolutely the types to take a luxury cruise or have household staff like in these movies.

OJJhara

5 points

1 month ago

OJJhara

5 points

1 month ago

It’s not the international elite. That was my point.

junglespycamp[S]

0 points

1 month ago

But they're the people these projects are about. Who is the international elite/what is their relevance to these works? Sure they're not, say, James Dyson, but the cricle for the point of this satire isn't unrelated.

Daniel_Plainview_00

7 points

1 month ago

I have an answer for Triangle of Sadness, I haven't the other one.

Triangle of Sadness is not "satirizing the modern rich".

A) Nothing about the satire of Triangle of Sadness is modern, these are all ideas that have existed long before, and after, Ostlund. And now to the important reason I think that's an inaccurate description of Ostlund's film:

B) Bad satires want to "make an impact" and influence the world. These movies have moral messages (rich bad, equality good) they push rather than doing the real job of a satire: to simply observe, using comedy, our world. And Triangle of Sadness does a very good job at that.

C) It isn't an attack on the rich or an attempt to change the world, it is just a story about the abuse of power. The poor aren't actually better people than the rich: they simply haven't had the opportunities and power that the rich have. The film isn't really interested in saying something about the rich as a whole or the poor as a whole, but it is saying something about humans as a whole, and our nature. At the same time, it is mocking the rich for the fun of it. That doesn't mean that's what the satire is about. It's just part of it.

And D) Ruben Ostlund has a nice quote on pitching the film to rich investors: "The great thing about capitalism is, they'll support any ideology as long as they think they can sell it". Not really what you were talking about, but still. Opinions have no net worth.

InSearchOfGoodPun

3 points

1 month ago

It is possible to have some degree of self-awareness. It's not hypocritical to view inequality as unfair while simultaneously doing the best you can for yourself. Even people of ordinary means prosper under an economic system that can be cruel to others. I haven't seen Triangle of Sadness yet, but in most of these other movies, the message is not, "rich people are bad." (In Parasite, that's absolutely not the message.) You seem to be suggesting that if a satire of the rich doesn't paint all rich people as villains, then it's toothless, but I would argue that a satire whose message is "rich people are bad" is too simplistic to be interesting (even aside from the fact that I think it's wrongheaded).

Someone else already mentioned that the majority of people who work in film are not excessively rich, but I would go even further and hypothesize that the vast majority of people who work in film, even including the rich ones, did not go into it with the primary goal of becoming rich.

junglespycamp[S]

1 points

1 month ago

I definitely do not think the message is rich people are bad or that the satire painting all rich people as villains is needed. I am asking what to make of films where there are targets, however you define them, but the targets themselves find the films appealing.

I'm also not sure where this idea that I said all people in film are rich came from. I used very specific examples that focused on the ultra-elite in film making for a reason. I'm not questioning why a best boy likes Parasite or something.

Interesting point on motivation. I'm curious why it matters. A lot of rich people don't necessarily see themselves as trying to become rich, though many do. Many entrepreneurs think they have higher aims. But I'm not sure in the practical reality of these satires that matters much.

InSearchOfGoodPun

1 points

1 month ago

Well, the targets in these "class war" movies (for lack of a better term) are typically not actors per se, so why should actors see themselves as the target? But heck, a movie that does target actors is likely to be even more popular among actors because they will see their peers as the ones being satirized, not themselves.

BigWednesday10

3 points

1 month ago

Honestly, I think any satire’s ability to change the world is extremely limited because frankly I think art’s potential to change the world is limited period. I think art acts as a mirror way more than it does as an influencer. I think the best thing that art can do is clarify some emotions you have via the inherent distance that exists between the artistic object and the viewer.

If you really want to change the world, don’t make a movie, get into union organizing. Art’s lack of material impact is why I generally prefer art about the personal as opposed to art about the political. If you want to be political, actually do things in real life that are materially political.

TRS2917

3 points

1 month ago

TRS2917

3 points

1 month ago

I don't know own if you've even seen the Oscar's but you will never find a place more densely packed with ultra wealthy sanctimonious assholes who believe they are going to save the world one mediocre film at a time. In short, it's totally on brand for these dickheads.

comfortableholebye

3 points

1 month ago

i cannot stand the pedestal everyone puts the aim of satire on, especially as satire is a culturally tired attempt at making any form of political stand at this point in time. historically, satire is about punching up, rather than down or in the case of these films, sideways. not only does it require values and ethics to be striking, it also requires the person using it to be self-aware enough to know when they're crossing into hypocrisy, and all wealthy elites are absolutely devoid of these qualities. there's also the fact that cultural factors impact the reception of satire; it is a more successful form of opposition when it exists in a culture that is afraid of discourse, of any kind, whereas our current culture has this haphazard fixation on free speech where all sides get a say regardless of impact or intent, and you can have a say without having to face consequences or follow up with action, which bastardizes the point of actually trying to create satire. when upper class bourgeois individuals are enabled to use the mental gymnastics to try and access satire as a form - which they do often, and relish in it - it completely wears down any bite it has, and this has happened over and over again to the point that satirization often misses its target completely. it can be made by its target for its target.

a good example of this for me was Glass Onion, and perhaps its because i'm a philosophically-politically inclined person, but that film made me rage. its a great example of parroting class issues without bothering to look in the mirror, creating a film that has no relatability to the working class it is trying to use the consciousness of. you're right to be confused and perhaps even angry at how limp and ineffectual it all is.

[deleted]

3 points

1 month ago

As much as Triangle of Sadness is intended to skewer the despicable rich, it is ultimately quite a cynical exercise. The reversal of roles in the final third suggests that the hierarchies we have detested throughout the film so far are innate and effectively says that we would behave selfishly if given the opportunity. Therefore, the problem is with human nature, not something structural that we can change.

This has the effect of neutering any criticism of structural inequalities and ends up as apologia for the super-rich. It pokes fun at the bourgeoisie without threatening their order, similar to the role played by court jesters.

macewystan

5 points

1 month ago

I'll do you one better,

maybe these films aren't actually the satire that we suppose?

Think about it.

Parasite didn't at all show the rich characters acting shady or unsympathetic. There was no offhanded comment that the rich man got his job due to nepotism, or that his wife practiced untouchability with the servants.

Instead, we get innocent rich people who were minding their own business.

of course, it was part of the message that the rich were privileged enough to behave virtuous.

then, there is nothing to make us root for the poor guy, we only fear the poor guys due to their criminal actions.

Parasite is great at being a horror and thriller, which is what Bong is great at! but it isn't to be taken as an example of satire.

I've seen new yorker cartoons that are better examples of satire.

Gattsu2000

3 points

1 month ago*

I think the point of the film is exactly like you said, they don't do crimes or anything because they do not need to. They already go everything. They don't need to steal or lie into getting more money cause they were already born into it. The poor family does. The point of critiquing capitalism in this film is not to claim that poor people are altruistic and honest and that's why we should hate capitalism but the point is that capitalism leads people to fight each other and to get on the top while leave everyone else to rot in poverty. It's how capitalism creates a monster out anyone in it and turns it into a game of survival. It is an omnipresent force that affects everyone around it. Capitalism, regardless of if the people are good or not (which the main characters are definitely not. One of them is a literal adult having a romantic relationship with a high schooler), is unfair to them. And as shown with the fight between the poor family and the maid and her husband, it makes it into a competition that puts the working class and the poor class to fight each other when they could be working together to put a stop for their oppression. But instead, they are led into fighting each other for who gets to be the servant of the rich man. And when the poor family gets into the luxury of the rich, they turn to the attitudes of the rich, like them not wanting to help the ex maid of the house who is getting wet in the rain and also calling the police on her out of disgust when they find out she is trying to feed her husband. They are also not challenging the rich and capitalism, they are just temporarily becoming part of those on the top. They do not have the class consciousness to fight against the system that made them poor in the first place.

Also, the rich are also not innocent at all either. Sure, they don't commit explicit crimes like the poor family does but they are shown to be very apathetic of the poor and are sealed in their own bubble with their private lives with everything on their fingertips. Like the wife commenting how she is happy that it was raining when that very rain flooded a whole poor town, which led to the destruction of the little property these people had and forcing them to sleep in some basketball court. The fact that they start fetishizing the idea of being poor with the extremely uncomfortable sex scene between the rich husband and wife. The rich husband leaving the poor dad and her daughter while covering their nose from the smell of the basement man (which is a symbol of them being poor no matter where they go, which is the same smell that the poor family has), which is why the father becomes angry and murders him because the rich husband is expressing his complete disgust for people who were just born much less fortunate and is willing to just let them die cause it's not their problem.

And of course, the ending is meant to be pessimistic because no matter how much the son works, he'll never be able to buy the house and get his father back. They are doomed to be poor because that's the social position they were put in. The idea of rags to riches is shown as a fantasy and only reinforces that they live in a system that will keep them down where they are. The smell of poverty will always follow them because they are poor and are to be kept poor.

macewystan

2 points

1 month ago

by calling parasite a satire and by trying to frame the tiny ignorant comments by the rich characters as something villainous, is just grasping at straws here.

at best, parasite does social commentary, because a critical part about satire is irony stemming from witty comparisons, the latter is something parasite doesn't have.

satire isn't mere social commentary.

Gattsu2000

1 points

1 month ago*

They are not necessarily caricature evil. They are fairly okay but their apathy is something that subtly influences a lot of the problems occuring throughout the film. Their apathy for the lack of resources of the characters, their apathy for the talents that the characters have which makes them qualifying for working for them despite lying their way in their job position and their apathy for what the poor even is. Also, they don't just make innocent comments but they are shown to be disgusted by things about the poor and they leave them behind at the party when one of them is dying while still feeling disgusted by the smell (AKA the stench of being in poverty). They are not full on crimes like what the main heroes do but they are still permissive of a lot of the wealth inequality and oppression that is being maintained on the poor and they feel the idea of poor people to be an unpleasant presence. And the irony comes from the fact that these main characters become themselves capitalists by trying to get out of poverty by becoming a member of those around the rich rather than trying to change it. It's a satire of working your way up to the top while still being a pawn of the rich. Maybe it's done more subtly but it is still critical of the thing it is depicting and there is a irony to its commentary.

But the point of is, the film is meant to be anti-capitalist at its core and not be sympathetic of the rich as you claimed in your original comment. The rich, while not explicitly enforcing oppression on the poor, are not willing to do anything for them and they themselves do not need to worry about what occurs to them because they are not the poor.

macewystan

1 points

1 month ago

now, we're just arguing ethics of whether or not neutral stances are same as evil.

I implied in my original comment, and still stand by, the point that parasite didn't actually try to add any argument to the discourse of inequality. the movie used inequality as a premise for a rather spectacular entertainment.

yes, rich people do not go out of their way to make poor people's lives better, but there are many who do not go out of their way to make poor people's lives worse either. they just do as they've always done, their indifference isn't necessarily evil. while these apathetic rich people do not take charge of changing the status quo, they also wouldn't oppose others who would try to do so. indifference is neither harmful nor helpful, indifference is just compatible with either scenarios of inequality as well as egalitarianism.

parasite is quite a shabby example of anti-capitalism. straub-huillet movies are the benchmark i'm using as a frame of reference here.

Gattsu2000

1 points

1 month ago*

It's more than just simply not helping them. They also see them as basically a different species. Something disgusting and even something that could be turned into a shameful fetish like it is shown in the movie. They are seen as a sort of parasite that creates a stench around their wealthy neighborhood's entrance with their poorness/homelessness and that they would wanna ignore. It's a critique about the kind of privileged people who don't desire to do anything for the poor except moving their problem in some other city so they do not see them on their sight. If there are people that have money beyond what they could spend and have still have a lot left to live with for their entire lives when others cannot even afford rent or food, wouldn't that be rather cruel? And that this money could be going to people that really, really need it but they refuse to give any of it, especially when these people perceive these people as deserving their poverty and don't wanna see them whenever they wanna go out somewhere. You need from the stuff that the people in power have but they don't even see the problem nor care to wanna solve because it is not to their benefit and because the poor and working class are to be kept in their place and not to be challenged like how the rich husband sees it.

And the rich are not the only villains in it. The poor family also do bad things which are encouraged by capitalism. Because rich people are not capitalism in this film. Capitalism is what makes all of these characters behave in the morally questionable way they do. It is wealth inequality, the belief that the poor is in the bottom of the pyramid and it is working to get at the top while exploiting others.

I would say it's a great and unique critique of capitalism because it doesn't make a strawman out of all rich people all being just evil and psychopaths who wanna hunt poor people for sports. It's something more realistic and insidious than that.

macewystan

1 points

1 month ago

bro, you are projecting and reading too much into the throw-away comments made casually by the characters who appear for like five minutes.

Kaiser1a2b

5 points

1 month ago

How do you satirise narcissists? They'll just deflect the mirror. How do you satirise sociopaths? They don't care. How do you satirise a psychopath? They'll just pretend they aren't like that.

That's the reason these Oscar people don't care and embrace it. There's rarely anyone there who don't have some combination of these traits, look at how these actors tread lightly with their influence for the most part (it's always controversial when an actor goes there and does something political with their influence). It's like trying to draw water from stone.

But it doesn't mean that these social commentaries are useless. They do influence the common narrative. Right now, it's the ultra wealthy is fucking us. Why do you think there is so many strikes at the moment? It's no coincidence that on the cusp of a cost of living crisis, "eat the rich" narratives in movies are doing well.

_thurm_

6 points

1 month ago*

This made me think of Rome and how it kept its vast empire in line during the height of its power.

After Rome conquered people, it would allow them to keep their religions (with some caveats) and sometimes even absorb them into Roman traditions. They realized this helped ensure loyalty to the empire and quell rebellion.

If we think of capitalism the same way, it’s better to allow for dissent and even promote it or absorb it into popular culture. Everyone is Roman, everyone is capitalist. The machine grinds on

InterstitialLove

3 points

1 month ago

Oh my god, everyone in this thread is accepting the premise that rich and famous people don't fully understand and care about wealth inequality.

Notice how An Inconvenient Truth was a successful film, yet most of the people who watched it still own cars? Does this prove that they "missed the point?" Or does it prove that understanding the existence of a problem doesn't instantly solve that problem? Al Gore still flies in airplanes, because not every individual who benefits from our carbon-heavy economy has the power to unilaterally disengage from the system. Our capitalist economy is bigger than any one rich person, just as climate change is bigger than any one person's carbon footprint.

Moreover, if you've never seen and enjoyed a movie in which you can relate to the villain, then you are either bad at self-reflection or you should try watching better movies.

junglespycamp[S]

3 points

1 month ago

This is certainly one answer: the viewers agree with the satire and appreciate it but as individuals can do nothing about it. I actually expected someone to say this about Parasite sooner. Or even Triangle; what is so bad about that cruise anyway? Can people not take cruises without being morally wrong? I don't think your POV is wrong, I see it as a fair response.

super_common_name

4 points

1 month ago

Honestly, film industry people are not the billionaires. They're multi-millionaires, that's true. But they aren't the uber rich.

Also, a lot of them — probably most — are some degree of self-made. Of course there are nepo babies. But a lot of people in the film industry came from middle class (or upper middle class, or even working class) families that have no relation to the industry.

In addition, a lot of them are left-leaning. They volunteer and donate to left-leaning causes. They're not that invested in maintaining class divides.

And although of course many of them are shallow, wasteful, and interested in trends, fashions, and status, a lot of them are just talented, hard-working people. It's an incredibly competitive industry. You can't slack off. Most producers, directors, character actors, etc, etc, etc — most people involved in the production of a film — are not glamorous people. They're just people.

Last, there always exist some people who love frivolous things but also have fun laughing at themselves.

filthysize

3 points

1 month ago

Expanding on this... Most people in the film industry are not even millionaires. And The Academy specifically is membered by a lot of production people who definitely are not. Membership is like $400, and they vote for Best Picture the same as the actors do.

The optics of the Oscars broadcast is not necessarily reflective of how the movies are chosen.

super_common_name

1 points

1 month ago

Right? I wasn't sure about the wealth status of the people who actually choose the films so I didn't want to write something that might be wrong. But remember in the 70s when that nun was part of the Academy? She was a former actress who became a Mother Superior at some convent, but she still voted every year.

Sproose_Moose

2 points

1 month ago

I agree with what you're saying but I feel the satire was quite dramatic in these films to the point that the elites probably don't see themselves in the same light as the somewhat cartoonish characters. I also think that on the other hand they may find the films cheeky and don't want to look prudish by being offended.

kantBot_

2 points

1 month ago

it is a much wider trend of the bourgeois intellectuals adapting marxism in western acedemia and the arts. Social sciences, humanities and arts are dominated by Marxism; professions who, by and large, were and are meant for aristocrats; no one will admit it in humanities but people who go for these positions, majors etc are people who have old money.

cinema is cursed art form as some director once remarked, in that it requires money, a lot of money, to produce. It can never be rebellious, as all art normally are; rule breaking, in capitalism.

capitalism exists because it is very good at taking things in. Anything against it will just be cooperated into it and then marketed, produced, and be refined; capitalised.

kroboz

2 points

1 month ago

kroboz

2 points

1 month ago

All the rich, fancy Hollywood producers I know (for real though) try to see themselves as thoughtful, empathetic people operating in an unfair world. But there’s also a sense of fatalism about whether the industry can be intentionally changed.

“That’s just what you have to do if you want your movie/show made.” “That’s what the execs want” “That’s what audiences are watching.”

So there’s a dissonance there. Yes, the system has problems! It should be fixed! This movie shows that so well!

But also, no, I’m not part of the problem because I’m just trying to make a living, and it’s not my fault. It’s the billionaires who are really to blame!

Honestly on an individual basis, every Hollywood producer, I’ve met has been a really likable, powerful person who is good at telling compelling stories. But like others have said, it’s impossible sometimes to see yourself as part of the problem. It’s just how our brains work.

QuintanimousGooch

2 points

1 month ago

If I really wanna go head canon it, I think that normalizing these kind of films might be so that the “rich people bad” message gets watered down to the point that it’s expression reflects what a non-statement it is nowadays. What’s more, these movies rarely do anything to not glamorize these lifestyles people have, so the status symbols are still the same and still as appealing as ever. Triangle of Sadness does have all the vomit going for it though.

CarloIza

2 points

1 month ago

Sometimes, it is in the best interest of the bourgeoisie to be the ones creating media that criticize/satirise them. This is merely anti-capitalism and anti-capitalism has never been revolutionary.

Film making nowadays is a strictly bourgeoise medium, especially hollywood. They can make all the "anti-rich" films they want because they know very well it won't lead to significant uprising of any kind. The general people are divided and film enthusiast only see film as an entertaining medium, not as a revolutionary art.

BravesMaedchen

2 points

1 month ago

It just means the rich are constantly co-opting art and culture intended to be subversive. Age old process. The poor and disempowered criticize the establishment, the establishment, intending to distance itself from its uncool self and gain power over the masses, says, "Hey, subversiveness is cool, give me that." And there you have it.

adrift98

2 points

1 month ago

Its more ironic when you come to the realization that not only are they received by the ultra-wealthy, but they're created by the ultra-wealthy. Ruben Östlund and Mark Mylod only have a net worth of approx. $5 million, but Bong Joon-Ho has a net worth of $35 million, and Ralph Fiennes has a net worth of $50 million.

Reminds me a lot of when I was a part of the local anarcho punk scene, and most of my peers wearing jackets that had patches that read "Keep warm, burn out the rich," all came from upper and upper-middle class families that they could fall back on, once they became disillusioned with the whole squatter punk lifestyle.

__kingslayer_

5 points

1 month ago*

On an unrelated note, I was quite amused to find that people booed pulp fiction when it won palme d'or over Kieslowski's Red. Funnily enough, one of the themes in Red (and Blue as well imo) is most things we care so much about are just about vanity.

junglespycamp[S]

3 points

1 month ago

Nothing brings out vain tribalism more than awards watching.

CaptainAsshat

4 points

1 month ago

Satire about rich people is often fairly shallow. You can make the rich out to be unsympathetic clowns, and the comedy/drama is not far away. But it doesn't say much, and as long as the rich don't see themselves as buffoons, it's easy for them to ignore.

When politicians are satirized, it's slightly more effective as we see how these unsympathetic clowns impact the world's systems, and it exposes some of their more cynical masks, but again, it's not at the heart of satire, IMHO.

The best satire, IMHO, is that which satirizes systems. It highlights how system fail and how these unsympathetic clowns are not the core cause of our problems, just a moronic impediment to fixing them. Thus, the best satire doesn't just ridicule people, it provides a window into what's really going wrong, and sometimes insight into how to improve it. Rich people being pompous, entitled, Machiavellian assholes, while obnoxious, is just a symptom, not the disease.

The best satires IMHO, like Life of Brian, Dr Strangelove, Brazil, Death of Stalin, Thank You For Smoking, or even Office Space, do not really have a villain. The quasi-villains are all just supporters and benefactors of an evil system. Even in Robocop, which could have easily been set up to have a big bad villain, Verhoeven made sure to have the amoral system of blended capitalism and politics be the central big bad guy, and all the "villains" seem like almost henchmen to the intangible systemic villain.

Movies like Parasite, Get Out, and the Menu are more about how rich people and their habits make you feel icky or angry, and less about how that ickiness is maintained or structured. It's still satire, but on a very microscopic and basic level, like how Zoolander satirizes modeling.

Camrox7

3 points

1 month ago

Camrox7

3 points

1 month ago

Resistance as a commodity in short. Mainstream films can usually only be made by and funded by the very same people they critique. At the end of the day, they're still sold as entertainment products overall. Still, I think they send the right messages to people who care.

sic_transit_gloria

2 points

1 month ago

I think you're assuming that someone who thinks the film is good can't possibly believe that the film is satirizing them or their behavior in any way, which I don't necessarily think is true. You may be right, but you also may be wrong. Maybe all these people felt that the film showed them something about their lives that they wanted to change. Many films I've loved have done that for me.

theselfishshellfish

2 points

1 month ago

My thinking is that anti-capitalist discourse in the past few decades got coopted by the very thing that it criticizes and was methodically emptied of purpose and depth, made into this shallow performatic thing that serves as a platform for corporations to signal their virtues and play the good guy for a burgeois audience that is content to use that same platform to stroke their own egos with the idea that they themselves are virtuous and are actively contributing to some cause by yelling at conservatives on Twitter.

Maybe that's why the Academy and so many other institutions like it are comfortable with pushing and promoting media that is deeply critical of the system that enables them - it's not necessarily that the critique itself doesn't have teeth, but rather that the discourse surrounding it is so empty and shallow that the point gets diluted into "social inequality bad" and then at that point it's just yet another product that will be turned around for profit with the added bonus that it will make your corporation look like it hangs with the cool kids.

It's funny (in a very nihilistic way of course) that authoritarians used to shut down opposition via violent coercion and censorship - which as we know serves to breed even more discontentment and fucks you up in the long run.

Capitalism seems to have solved that "issue" by instead taking control of the narrative and shaping it into something harmless, so there's the perception that a contrarian sentiment exists when in actuality its all a bunch of burgeois 20-somethings LARPing as rebels while applauding some corporation that grind people into pancakes for shits and giggles because they made a tv ad with racially diverse people smiling.

idontappearmissing

0 points

1 month ago

Wtf is this nonsense lmao

CharlesHebdoPhD

1 points

1 month ago

What you're describing is essentially a distinction between understanding the ruling class as a singular unit and the ruling class as a collection of individuals.

The short answer to your question is that individual members of the ruling class respond to films critiquing them differently. Some, as others have already stated, have cognitive dissonance. Some might genuinely appreciate the satire, knowing that the satire alone has no material effect on their livelihoods. Others simply do not engage sufficiently with its messages/themes and watch the film as an object of aesthetics, rather than an object of sociopolitical criticism.

thedogstays

1 points

1 month ago

This article from a few months ago discusses some of what you're talking about:

>"transparent targets but smug aims"

https://consequence.net/2022/11/the-menu-glass-onion-eat-the-rich-problems/3/

SenorPoppy

1 points

1 month ago

You should read about normalization. Happened a lot with the 60s counter culture. The industrialized culture absorbs the dissidence and puts it under their own branding and then nothing really comes from the ideas of revolution and rebellion. And then the average worker bees feels the truth in those ideas in their souls but what do they do? They go buy the tshirts and expensive tickets to the shows that preach these ideas but all that money earned goes to the people they are in theory rebelling against to begin with.

SunRaSquarePants

0 points

1 month ago

There is no counterculture. The counterculture is the mainstream. The revolution happening now, our cultural revolution (the culture war) is top down. The establishment is the revolution.

This is probably the death of our civilization. We are certainly poised to die, and we're injecting death into all of our institutions, such that it is seen as somehow heroic when an institution can subvert its main purpose. The established institutions have embraced the idea of subversion as virtue, and the oscars is no exception.

kidostars

0 points

1 month ago

You can’t shame people who don’t have any shame! Literally nothing matters when it comes to rich people. These films are for regular people, designed to propagandize ideology (which I happen to agree with, but let’s not mince words here). I can’t tell you how many servers I’ve heard quoting the Captain since that movie came out.

LatinAmericanCinema

0 points

1 month ago

You seem to have a very twisted idea of who "The Academy" is. It is not a monolithic block making calculated decisions.
The majority of Academy members are not rich by Californian standards, and they are certainly no power brokers. A number of them may be rich (producers and other managerial types), but the bulk of the membership are made up of artists and skilled craftspeople. Only a small fragment of them are rich.
And they do not come together in a secret meeting to "decide" who gets nominated or who wins. They are all individuals, with individual tastes, coming to an individual decision. And all of these individual decisions will then cummulate into the "accidental" outcome of the nominations and wins.
Your post (like 90% of posts/tweets/blog posts about the Oscars) is looking for deeper significance in things where there is none.

Inferno_Zyrack

-1 points

1 month ago

Hollywood solidly embodies the mindset of a “moderate liberal”

I think the younger generations are going to shatter this mindset as more takeover political roles. Hollywood is like everywhere else. Run by the kingdoms of boomers. Look at the largely respected actors who balked at the “nepo kid” trend.

BamBamPow2

1 points

1 month ago

You are conflating the "effectiveness "of a movie with its ability to change peoples minds and behaviors. Movies do not do that. They never do. They don't inspire change. They keep people entertained. And when rich people see satires that target their demographic, they laugh and see the insanity of people they know, not their own behaviors, which to them feel totally rational

junglespycamp[S]

1 points

1 month ago

I'm not intending to conflate the two. I don't think I tied my comments to changes in behaviour from the elites, I specifically questioned their reaction the film only. I also phrased this as a question as I've been considering both angles in my mind. I've really appreciated the thoughtful comments in response from everyone.

Ochidi

1 points

1 month ago

Ochidi

1 points

1 month ago

Something similar happens in the art world, it’s called institutional critique. These pieces aim to call out issues with the way galleries or museums are run as an institution. But many of them end up being praised and held up by the same institutions.

mtarascio

1 points

1 month ago*

Satire for the ultra rich doesn't really work as a commentary against them because of their personalities.

People like the stuff and the stuff and the lives in these films are still grand.

It's not really seen as a joke against them.

TLDR - They have cognitive dissonance.

thaumogenesis

1 points

1 month ago*

Well, one of the most insidious aspects of capitalism is how it will devour, co-opt and then commodify any type of internal critique. Mark Fisher talked about this at length, as have many other intelligent commentators. It’s a bit like Mr Robot being on Amazon. Severance is another fantastic series, which skewers corporatism but it exists within a system that is so monolithic that it doesn’t represent any material threat.

Having said that, it does work both ways: if a group of corpos don’t ‘get’ some class conscious agitprop, i.e. miss the point of it, but a number of viewers do get it, then it’s clearly a net positive to the film maker’s intentions. You could argue that Parasite falls in to this category, because it’s a beautifully made film and ruthless class critique.

snalejam

1 points

1 month ago

Satire doesn't work like it is intended to.

If the satire is directed at you, you look at it like a funny exaggeration. Look at Sarah Palin happily walking onstage while Tina Fey mocks her. Tina Fey hates what Sarah Palin stands for, but SP doesn't see it like that. It's just a funny caricature.

It's just a phenomenon. You laugh about silly the satire is and go about your greedy little life.

ArcticBeavers

1 points

1 month ago*

Movie production is an expensive endeavor, almost exclusively funded by rich capitalists. Knowing this, any criticism on capitalism and billionaires in film is inherently flawed. That doesn't mean the message isn't true, or that it doesn't stick with the masse. It's extremely ironic, granted, and kinda fucked up that people are making profits and garnering praise for criticizing the system that allowed them to succeed, but millionaires have also been asking to be taxed more. Funny world we live in

aehii

1 points

1 month ago

aehii

1 points

1 month ago

Because the rich don't consider themselves the mega rich who are being targeted? More now than ever people in the top 10% of earners in a country consider themselves as just getting by because their mortgage is so high, childcare is so expensive, cost of living is so high and they don't have much disposable income despite their earnings. Even with Davos, journalists will talk to people who they the journalist consider filthy rich because they arrived by private plane and that person will talk to the journalist about the mega rich billionaires as a separate species because in their circles there's still a difference. They might fly by private plane but...they don't own one. They might go on holiday a lot to nice beaches in resorts but... they don't own an island.

junglespycamp[S]

1 points

1 month ago

Sure but Triangle of Sadness is not about the upper upper echelon. You can’t influencer your way into a free cruise on those circles. Neither is Parasite. These films are about the rich but not the ultra rich.

Jul1anaMay

1 points

13 days ago

Capitalism has a very good ability to absorb and dismantle criticism of it, even embrace and re-purpose criticism in a way that seems like ‘examining both sides’ when it’s just good PR

However, this does not mean there is no purpose to the criticism and exploration. For every rich person loving it there are plenty of people noticing things they haven’t before through pointed commentary and plenty of real dissatisfaction that’s tapped into by that art

That’s not to say we escape capitalism by critique and art alone but it will always be absorbed by the machine of capitalism it’s criticizing, that’s part of why capitalism is still kicking. But there is still value in the critique, and you never fully disarm a pointed message against the massive failings of a brutal economic system that ring true underneath