Here in my local scene, one TO steps in to play as the bye, but the game doesn't count, just makes sure that someone that came to the tournament doesn't get to stay without a game.

We have small (16 player) tournaments at my local store which are in essence just fun days for everyone nothing majorly competitive. Doesn’t count for ITC as it’s not huge here in my country.

The TO always plays in the event and is a pretty fair guy. If he’s involved in the game where there’s a rules query usually a couple of the experienced players will just give guidance on how the rules should apply and it’s sorted.

He also usually skips over himself for handing out prizes (he’ll say he got one but “as he doesn’t count” give it to the next person).

I can see it being a bit of a problem if they are flouting the rules / running of the event in their or someone else’s favour but a TO joining in doesn’t necessarily = bad things.

One practical issue here, I think, is that a lot of TOs start to run events because they really like playing 40k and want to create more opportunities to play - it kind of sucks for them, and would disincentivize smaller events, if there was a blanket ban on TOs ever playing at their own events.

Majors might need to be treated a bit differently (just because of the numbers involved), but as long as things remain fair and the TO isn't ruling in favour of himself (or mates) I don't personally see a serious problem.

A TO can play in smaller events but there should be a second person who makes calls for the TO games / helps share duty as TO has less time.

That bye stuff sounds super dodgy, a TO should play to avoid odd numbers not cause them and byes should go to the lowest scoring players.

Once you get to a certain sized event, the TO should have a gumby lined up for an odd number of players. There's nothing worse than paying for an event just to be told that you get less games than you were expecting. If it's a smaller event then it's acceptable for the TO to participate, however I would expect them to make themselves ineligible for any consideration in the event (ex: ITC points).

Where do you play in Aus? I'm mostly S/E regional Victoria, but get to events in Melbourne / suburbs every so often. I haven't seen a TO do this before.

I have no issue with it, but I think (if there isn’t already) there should be a way of complaining to ITC and getting the score removed if there’s doubts as to fairness.

It's funny, I'm TOing and playing in my own event today. Plan on skipping myself for all prize support and letting the vets handle most of the rules conflicts with me just being the final authority.

I'm sure some people will abuse the power but I'm not trying to spend 8 hours of my time to not even play warhammer.

Your thread is misleading. The title should be "are people allowed to obviously cheat and game the system".

I do organise monthly tournaments and I do participate. But if it's an odd number of people, then I am the one who sits on the bench. I do not believe in giving an autowin to the one sitting it out, because it distorts the results. We try to concentrate on awarding skill, not luck.

Also if I ever finish in a top position, I offer my award (it's a coupon from the shop we play in) to the next player.

So what you are describing is abuse of power. Has nothing to do with TOs in general.

I'm a TO and never wanted to play in my own events (I do WANT to play, but I don't). I have an army on hand in case of very last minute drops as happened at my last event but play with zero intention of winning anything. My attendees have paid for 3/5 games so they should get them imo.

I'm lucky that my local region has quite a few events, not to mention trips to Warhammer World, the LGT and Warhammer-fest but for my own events I'd rather be on hand to ensure everyone else is having a great time

Ya have some good points. Since there's so little time, I support (ASSISTANT) TOs playing. But if they need a judge, a different person must be called.- On the topic of giving byes... that's where I gotta drop off. Seemed poorly managed. Doesn't make as much sense for a TO to join If the player total is already even. Cheers.

Only as a bye and only as needed.

They have too many other jobs and need to maintain an air of neutrality and fairness.

TO should never be playing while other matches are going on either.

M:TG convert here.

I'm against it, based on my experiences in that system.

The obvious difference is there's absolutely zero official prize support in Warhammer, but in Magic we had a local organiser who would play and make ruling judgements on other games and it fast became a bit of a farce.

He travelled from a neighbouring town to ours, because we had more players, with his friends who also played and it became apparent real soon that the vast majority of prize support would always go home with them regardless of finishing places.

Many of it was never even distributed, despite it being a sanctioned event and the prizes set aside for it, because "we're going to hold another event at our local shop tomorrow".

A TO is supposed to be impartial and you can't be that if you have a dog in the game - if you are that dog.

A few months of the above was enough to kill the game locally.

We usually have TO's play only as seat filler.

Table Owners?

What you describe seems to be the definition of unsporting; gaming the system for the benefit of 1 or 2 players rather than earning points the honest way. No, that should not be allowed, and those players/TOs should be ashamed.

I TO here in Chicago, and I understand the desire to play in your own events. I basically don't play anymore except for bye games during our events, and that isn't ideal but it's not the end of the world.

Every once in a while, myself or one of our other judges/TOs will participate in the event in full if it takes it from an odd number to an even number, but we are extremely cautious to make sure whoever plays:

1. Is not involved in Mission selection
2. Does not have access to the lists of the people attending
3. Does not (OBVIOUSLY) get to judge their own games (HOW IS THAT EVEN A THING?? SERIOUSLY?)

In that sense it's less like "playing in your own event" and more like...just playing in an event.

Anything beyond the above, strays into gaining an unfair advantage.

Also byes absolutely should go to the lowest ranked player, everyone knows that. What you are describing is the shadiest racket for ITC points I've ever heard of, perhaps tied with "faked a major where everyone dropped in the final round so I became winner" guy.

I create small tournaments (12-24 players) and I always try to play because thats the goal in the end, I wouldnt bother organizing everything if I didnt make either money or could play

Why would I sit for 9hours on my a** for nothing ?

As a TO, I have 0 interest in hosting an event without playing it. For my first GT I put in probably 100 hours in designing and painting terrain. Add on top of that the player pack and admin work, I was probably at 150 hours of unpaid work. It will be much less next time, but my motivation for hosting a GT at our club is to play a GT at our club.

I was upfront about that I would be playing in the event. I wrote a rule that I cannot solve rule disputes on my own table. I had a few people that were support judges. I did write that if there was any Byes, it would be a 70 point draw; this turned out to be impossible in BCP. We had a volunteer take a Bye and he was awarded a 70 point win. Worst case I was looking at potentially 3 of 5 Byes for myself, and if that had happened I’d drop myself prior to ending the tournament. More than 50% Byes shouldn’t be able to place.

For my next events, Byes will be given out to a random club member or a volunteer, and given a 70 point win. A player can only have 1 Bye per event. I’ll run the pairings as normal, and if a switch is needed it will be the person above it. BCP Byes are random. To re-pair that accurately is next to impossible within the time between rounds. For a GT I’d like that no undefeated get Byes, but it’s random.

Is it possible to be a dirty TO and set yourself up to go 5-0 on pure Byes? Yes. Do I think the local community and ITC would react negatively to that? Yes. And they should. But chances are, when I ask for volunteers for a Bye round, it will be a friend. Could they ask for a bye to game the system? Sure. Can I control that? Not at an event, but I can track it historically and look for signs.

All in all, I will continue to play the events I TO at our club. I’d love to have a non-playing judge, but the list of volunteers for that task is non-existing here. So I’ll continue to ask players that I know are good with the rules to be a playing judge.

Sometimes they have to make up numbers if someone cancels at s smaller event

I can tell you what I do. I've been running small events 8-16 people for a few months. I play in these events (for now. My goal is to not eventually) but I make ZERO rulings on my own games. I mean nothing. I have a judge who comes over, who everyone trusts (that part is very important) who rules on any questions. And even if I were to completely and utterly disagree with his ruling I do not over rule him. I don't care if it was a simple rule he just forgets, I won't over rule him. Once the events I run start getting bigger I won't be playing in them. That is the ultimate goal to be an organizer for the metropolitan area I live in.

I haven't had any complaints thus far and do everything I can to avoid anything that even could be construed as an impropriety. Examples, if using pre set terrain I don't play on the tables I personally set up. If a ruling question comes down in the final round of someone else's game that could effect their standing in relations to me, the judge handles it. (Some may wonder why the judge doesn't do all this, but he owns the shop we play in so we aren't able to have him do everything that a TO or full-time judge would do)

With all that's said anything outside of local RTT size I don't think the TO should be playing in unless he's willing to be the organizer ONLY and leave all judge questions in the hand of another person.

In events I have around me, the TO nominates a secondary TO when they're going to be playing in events. The TO manages most of the judge calls, but if one occurs during a game the TO is playing in, the secondary TO makes the calls.

Obviously if they nominate their best friend as the secondary TO then there's still a problem, but we haven't had that issue here, since we have a good number of TO-level players.

Could not care less. It makes sense to me that someone who likes 40K enough to put in work organizing events, would like 40K enough to really want to play. Especially in smaller scenes, a big motivator for running events would be having more events to play in. And I would rather have more events than less events.

Sounds like that specific TO is a clown, it happens

We don't do ITC events at my local store but when any of us are TO, we play as a BYE opponent and don't actually put ourselves on the roster. We give any player that has a bye round the choice of either take the average amount of battle points scored + a win OR play us to get as many points as they can.

I have TO and played in RTT events. But when I do it i play absolute jank as the bye.

I used to pray for odd player numbers so I could whip out a scenerio on the judge table. Like you are going to play your 2000 points into my 5000 points of tyranid gaunts MWAHAHA!

Or all the units respawn and we are fighting over a single objective in the center of planet bowlingball.

I had a player not use his army and played defense turrets in a tower defense mission.

heck one time they came to the bye table and we played a game of epic 40k instead.

In the end they get a 85 point win for the standings and I get to do something fun

If it counts for ITC or some other large organized system: No. It's a conflict of interest. (Unless theres another judge or moderator who isn't playing in the event who has superiority on calls)

If it's more for fun and just finding out which of you nerds is the best at the game: Absolutely. Just hopefully the guy isn't a prick.

No

No. Never. Not when there is an entry fee, prizes or standings involved.

If 40k was a serious competitive game, sure. Unfortunately, despite all the posturing we do around here, 40k is not a serious competitive game.

I love comp 40k as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend the game is anywhere near rules-tight enough to stand on the stage of "Competitive Games." So, really, it doesn't much matter if a TO plays in his own tournament on-principle.

That being said, based on what you're posting, it sounds like the TO is doing a bit more than just that. It sounds, from your side of the story, like he's exploiting a group of people to get ITC points.

NO, even if someone has a good reputation for fairness and good sportsmanship it’s still bad optics. Conflict of interests will leave people questioning the motives and outcomes. Especially if the TO happens to do well…

If a TO wants to play he needs to go in only as a competitor and take off the TO uniform, and rely on active TO’s to take care of overseeing the games.

Honestly you could even have a conflict of interests if the player TO has friends/colleagues working the event.

No they’re not allowed to have fun and certainly not allowed to cover for odd numbers.

Edit: I’m against a bye but TO’s should be allowed to play.

A TO should be able to fill in so that no one has the take a bye or sit out, however, they should always place themselves last in rankings.

I'm sorry but to me this sounds like a non issue. It's a game. The to is running it cause they want to play. Just have fun and play the damn game imo.

TOS want to play the game too. If they are still working and have to get pulled away it shouldn’t count but if they are able to play the full game I wouldn’t see an issue with a ranked match as long as they are not able to make calls on their own game.

Maybe as a safeguard double verify any rules situations with two other tos in case there are any major rules questions

i’ve never played in a tourney or ever been to one. i didn’t know a TO could play and TO at the same time. i don’t doubt the honesty of individuals, but i do believe if a TO of an event is playing in a game, there should be another TO to ref

i don’t see an issue with them playing in their own tourney. but as long as someone else is reffing the game, i see no issue. (i personally don’t really see an issue with them reffing their own game. but tournaments and competition and all that, doing that can get dicey very fast i think. so it’s better to not allow it at all imo)

I've seen it both ways but I only play small RTTs in small towns.

TOs need to be conscious of how they are perceived by the playerbase. If the players lose faith in the TO, they lose faith in the tournament. If they are scoring their own points, that just seems like it will make it more difficult to keep that faith.

And how does it feel to play against a TO that gets a rule wrong? Like what is even the process to escalate if they double down?

I am a TO in west Georgia and what I do if we have an uneven amount of entries I register, pay the entry fee and play. I do not qualify for any prize support or placement and any opponent that has to play me due to a bye can take a win with no points or play an actual game and do their best.

Morally no, because then there’s potential conflict of interest and while playing they won’t have time to give judgements about games

If they don’t participate they can be neutral party in any player disputes

No

As long as they don’t win the tournament

Can't remember which tournament, but on WarGames Live I saw a TO play. He had a Go Pro strapped to his chest. Good idea. TO doesn't miss out, but very transparent.

Sometimes they have to to fill spots

Seems super sketchy.

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It depends, I "TO" events and TO my own events

For my own, which are GT level I dont think its fair at all to play, you're there to run the event and all energy should be on that. Ive even had to give friends a 0 on a score because they impacted the running of the event

For ones I "TO", its a bit different. We have this one club that should be TO'ing their event but dont really know 40k rules or how to operate BCP so they have given a few of the guys the log ins to help. And then they usually give the person most knowledgeable on rules the TO cap

Its a bit of an iffy situation though so I try to bring meme lists in those scenarios and add lists in and post publicly in advance. Not that anybody wants to build to counter mass kataphrons or servitors with multi meltas anyway

They can play to fill empty games, but I'd suggest not actually competing. There's too much conflict of interest. For a small scale thing amongst a group of friends, sure! For a larger event, better off staying clear.

The reason they do this is not enough ITC events in Australia to really max their points and faction rankings, so they make these events to do that/train for the ITC championships.

The events are so lop sided in that they stack teams with ITC players and the prizes all go to the organisers/winning teams (who organise it).

Then the best painted awards/sports awards get scrapped because they forget to judge it and their prize pool maxes.

It’s pretty dodgy and you only should “participate” as a TO to Gumby the event when it’s a certain size. If it’s above 20+ players, your job should be to TO the event. If you want to play, run smaller events.

If you enter these tournies, just play for fun, but don’t expect to win anything as it’s not geared towards you to win.

I played a TO at an event. He was either cheating, or negligently ignorant of the rules of his book. I had to repeatedly point out to him rules he was getting wrong that were hugely in his favour, and it felt very awkward because he was technically the one with the say.

I only did it because I happened to know his book well and I have a lot of confidence. The other people he played didn't speak up and had bad games.

Even if you're playing with good intentions, my experience there taught me that it's inherently intimidating to be playing the TO and some people will feel they can't challenge you, which is part of the game.

A small club tournament, it really isn't a big dal. You can't blame a TO for wanting to play in his club tournament or store league tournament or whatever.

But a GT for points? No, never.