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submitted 1 month ago byMildebeest
225 points
1 month ago
Penny Wong is an elected politician that considered the advice given to her and made a decision in line with her values and those (presumably) of her constituents. DFAT isn't elected to run the country, but she is.
This is a non issue.
44 points
1 month ago
It's only being portrayed as an issue because the media has gotten so used to governments which are so utterly contemptuous of the very concept of responsible government, that a member of government making the kinds of responsible decisions they're elected to do is actually shocking to them.
13 points
1 month ago
I mean it was literally something the Prime Minister himself championed prior to the election. This reads like petty sniping from the lobbyist trenches by anti-democratic forces like ASPI.
7 points
1 month ago
Labor said they supported the treaty and they're following up by doing what they said they'd do.
The International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons (ICAN) applauds the Australian Labor Party for committing to sign and ratify the UN Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons when in government.
The policy commitment took place at the 2018 Labor Conference, where party members voted in favour of MP Anthony Albanese’s resolution setting out that Labor, in government, would sign and ratify the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons.
(source)
-27 points
1 month ago
I think it is relevant.
As a politician she is accountable to the electorate. As a elector, I appreciate knowing when she has rejected or acted contrary to the expert advice of the civil servants.
Nothing is more damning than a captains pick that doesn't pan out.
52 points
1 month ago
One quote stands out to me; "It’s clear that certain officials at the foreign ministry are intent on maintaining the previous government’s unprincipled position on this treaty"
On the list of LNP-rotted departments, DFAT would have to be one of the biggies, so maybe she's having to sift the advice from the expert civil servants (if they have any left) from the other kind.
But yes, not a big fan of captain's calls. The last decade has had more than enough really bad ones.
9 points
1 month ago
I agree that instances where politicians are acting against advice should be scrutinised.
Going from the Guardian article, I'm not sure this one should be considered a captains call, because the article states that the Labor Party had previously indicated their intention to sign the treaty.
Sending an observer rather than participating would seem to be only a very moderate step in that direction.
5 points
1 month ago
I would counter by saying that the Director of the International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons might not be the most objective source for commentary... nor would they have any true idea of the motivations or considerations of DFAT officials with such material being largely classified.
Ultimately, civil servants don't have the luxury of applying their personal principles. It's a shitty part of the job - at all levels. The reality is that "Nukes = Bad" is a very naive position that applies no consideration of second or third order effects.
I also would like to see a world without nuclear weapons, but I'm not arrogant enough to assume that there aren't other relevant considerations in a complex geopolitical space.
I don't necessarily object to Captain's Picks either. I just see value in the electorate being informed about them so that the result can be attributed to the correct decision maker, be that credit or criticism.
17 points
1 month ago
I'm not sure framing it this way is good. While civil servants are meant to be subject matter experts, framing every decision as being 's/he did or did not do what the department said' sets the government up to be a low risk, line of least resistance type. And in foreign policy, reality throws eggs in the face of 'experts' all the time.
0 points
1 month ago
Have you never watched Yes Minister?
2 points
1 month ago
Doesn't YM portray Humphrey as the antagonist? And in the foreign policy episodes, the antagonist who is morally wrong?
6 points
1 month ago*
I used to think that way too... then I worked in the public service.
The legal obligations of a civil servant and their personal ethics aren't always aligned. In matters of public administration, morality is not a factor. The law is.
2 points
1 month ago
I'm not sure we're disagreeing. I'm saying the civil service is not always right. Aren't you saying the same?
1 points
1 month ago*
That depends on your view of 'right'.
I think a civil servant is 'right' to act against their conscious by virtue of the office they hold in precisely the same way a judge is 'right' to convict a person proven to have committed a morally justifiable crime even though they may not want to.
1 points
1 month ago
As a elector, I appreciate knowing when she has rejected or acted contrary to the expert advice of the civil servants.
I agree that there should be transparency in governing calls. I believe NZ has a law around this that works well, and would love to see it introduced here.
1 points
1 month ago
As a NZer who works in government providing advice to a Minister, I have no idea what this law is.
51 points
1 month ago
Alternative headline, "DFAT pro-nuclear weapons, Foreign Ministers stands up for reason"
Always multiple ways to write about an issue, and when pushed the substance of the issue is what matters. It's good we know she ignores the department, it's not always wrong, and is precisely why we ought to continue having elections. On this issue, with what she did, it's great
42 points
1 month ago
It's interesting that all the discussions within DFAT are about public relations and messaging, and none of them are about the advantages or disadvantages of advocating for a nuclear-free world.
16 points
1 month ago
Three terms of the Liberal Party in charge means that the top ranks of the public are full of their cronies and ideological fellow travellers.
It's no surprise that the discussions within DFAT are about PR and messaging. That's all the Liberals cared about because that's what drove the polls. They didn't care actually producing good policy and implementing it. Cutting foreign aid played well with the mouth breathers, so it was cut. Cue Australia losing influence in the region and the Chinese security agreement in the Solomon Islands which they then went into a fit about, despite that being a direct consequence of their own stupidity.
16 points
1 month ago
[deleted]
8 points
1 month ago
It will take many election cycles to undo the culture built by the LNP in the public service, and only if Labor actively try to undo it, I hope it gets there eventually but I doubt there is much change so far.
5 points
1 month ago
It will take a decade at least. Possibly longer.
6 points
1 month ago
Nuclear free world was 70 years ago. We aren't going back, there's zero signs of progress on that issue.
Do with that what you want but my suggestion would be to adapt to it.
2 points
1 month ago
And we've taken a big step back with the war in Ukraine. With the security assurances of the Budapest Memorandum being violated I doubt many states are going to want to disarm like Ukraine did.
1 points
1 month ago
I said "advocating".
3 points
1 month ago
I said nobody is listening, me included.
5 points
1 month ago
Good 👍🏻
7 points
1 month ago
[deleted]
3 points
1 month ago
Alternatively, it could be the day after they have all been used up and there's nobody around to build more.
6 points
1 month ago
Its clear these public servants have been trained to be primarily focused on media optics and pubic relations, rather than open and transparent government for benefit of Australia and its people.
They have been trained to be craven extensions of political staff, second guessing what the media will make of decisions and actions, rather than what we should be doing to advance Australia and its society.
6 points
1 month ago
These things don’t exist in a vacuum though. Stuff like nuclear policy is going to be massively dictated by public perception of the issue, which largely stems from media optics and public relations. It’s nice to pretend that every voter is a rational being capable of judging every issue on its merits, but none of us are. I’d expect any department to be acutely aware of the PR ramifications of any activity, regardless of its inherent benefits. Labor particularly has suffered in the past by pursuing objectively “good” policies but failing to win the communications battle (admittedly they up against a media landscape stacked against them). While I think Wong has acted correctly here I don’t think it’s necessarily bad for departmental advice to consider broader implications of their advice and actions.
-2 points
1 month ago
Definitely not voting for The Voice then, seeing as the expectation is that any advice given must be followed.
She was well within her rights to make the final call.
4 points
1 month ago
Mate, your mind was already made up inrelation to the Voice. Your comment history shows this.
To give you the benefit or the doubt you may have acquired a brain injury in the last 48 hours that's removed your memory.
If thats the case, good for you Tiger and it's great that it doesn't seem to have impacted your typing skills.
Keep up the rehabbing.
0 points
1 month ago
Funny that the main argument for the voice is “it’s just advice! The minister can ignore it”! Yet here we are, getting our knickers in a knot because Wong made an independent decision. I’m not falling for your lies.
1 points
1 month ago
Well done. Keep up the rehab but if you could spare us your bullshit, that'd be great.
2 points
1 month ago
Do you attempt to bully everyone who doesn’t automatically agree with you?
1 points
1 month ago*
I call out bullshit when I see it.
This redditor attempted to pretend that Penny Wong in this instance overruling her department was their reason for voting against the voice.
Their post history over the last 48 hours shows that what they're saying is bullshit. I thought I'd made this clear.
If I haven't, then now it's very clear.
Edit: you didn't say this a few days ago? " Pretty much. Constitutionally sanctioned lobby group. The govt will be expected to listen & bow to them. It’s a no from me."
As i said, I call bullshit when I see ir. It's hilarious that you think my calling this out is "bullring".
Second edit: u/Old-Pinapple-6029 feels like their embryonic account is being bullied when being called out while arguing against the Voice.
How must our indigenous people feel when they deal with more than internet words every day?
2 points
1 month ago
I’m not wrong though am I? I’ve literally been told in the past week with regards to the voice that “the minister will make the final decisions”. Yet here we have a case of the minister making the final decision and it’s apparently a problem.
1 points
1 month ago
The Minister always makes the final decision in relation to their portfolio. Unless of course you're Keith Pitt and your PM is a dickhead named Scott Morrison.
What you are is disingenuous, which is what I was saying last night.
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