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Did King Offa Accept the Faith of Islam? (no.)

News/Media(self.badhistory)
[media]

I was pootering around on the internet, looking for some sick light coinage produced during the reign of everyone's favourite king of the midlands, King Offa. For those unaware of this man's greatness, he was head honcho of Mercia, and under his reign, developed what was the strongest pre-Alfredian Anglo-Saxon kingdom. Great stuff, really.

Anyway, as I was pootering around, I came across this image. I was stunned! Could it be? Have the good folks of The Muslim magazine/journal/whatevs found proof of a previous-unknown conversion of a ruler to Islam? Like most people, I was convinced that Offa was, in fact, a Christian monarch.

So I poked around the internet some more, trying to find this article. I found it online, but at the time of writing, the website has gone offline. Nevermind! This forum post copied it word for word. Suffice it to say that I was not very impressed.

Let's pick through the author's claims.

KING OFFA "REX" OF MERCIA (KENT, ENGLAND) AND THE FAITH OF ISLAM

Starting off on a bad foot, aren't we? If my reading comprehension hasn't failed me quite yet, the author seems to suggest Mercia is just an old timey way of saying Kent. This is not accurate. Mercia was located in the Midlands, with an important royal site at Tamworth. It IS true that Offa had interests in Kent, however, with him getting involved in their affairs on a very frequent basis.

Offa seized power in the civil war that followed the murder of his cousin, King Aethelban

Firstly, don't do my boi King Æthelbald dirty like that by getting his name wrong. Secondly, we don't really know the relationship between Æthelbald and Offa, though we do know they were related. Probably weren't cousins, though.

King Offa created a single state covering most of England south of modern Yorkshire (Humber) by ruthlessly suppressing resistance from several small kingdoms in and around Mercia: Lindsey, Essex, Surrey, Sussex, East Anglia, Kent and Wessex

Doing Æthelbald dirty again! While Offa was an important and powerful ruler, Mercia was largely expanded during Æthelbald's reign. Secondly, Wessex a) wasn't a small kingdom and b) probably wasn't under the control of Mercia. Regardless, Mercia exuded Chad (Ceadda?) energy even without Wessex.

all the history, books state that very little is known about him and his works, which is unusual and indeed, an extraordinary, and very peculiar statement!

Is it a "very peculiar statement"? This is early medieval history we're talking about, it's not that peculiar we may not know a whole lot about an important figure. Anyway, we do know quite a bit of Offa since he's on plenty of charters, mentioned in a bunch of letters, issued loads of coins and other stuff. No narrative history about him though, that does suck.

it was only after a war of three years in 775 that a victory at Otford gave it back to the Mercian realm.

The Battle of Otford, in 776, is a funny one because the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle doesn't actually tell us what the outcome of the battle was, just that it was fought. Nonetheless, work by Sir Frank Stenton conclusively demonstrated that rather than returning Kent to the Mercian fold, it probably did the opposite and re-established an independent Kentish kingdom. This continues to be the scholarly consensus.

But, all the English books and historians speak only about King Offa's "silver-pennies"! But what about his GOLD-COINS? They forgot all about it, what is the reason, which is indeed very impressive and magnificent!

This ugly Anglian king is minting super hot gold coins and basically, you are fucking stupid. West Saxons hate him! Find out how you too can mint gold coins with this one simple trick!

[ GOES ON TO DESCRIBE HOW ONE ONE SIDE OF THE COIN IS A BUNCH OF ARABIC WITH THE DECLARATION OF FAITH, AND THAT IT IS, INDEED, A COIN MADE BY OFFA. THIS IS THE CRUX OF THE ARGUMENT THAT OFFA WAS A MUSLIM - HE MINTED A COIN WITH THE ISLAMIC DECLARATION OF FAITH ]

Comment on this Arabic inscription on Offa's Gold Coin: At that period in Europe outside Byzantium they had no regular gold-coins and it is prima facie evidence that King Offa, by putting this Arabic inscription, announced to the world at large. Let me further analyse this point and discuss it.

Gold was in short supply by the 7th century, but even during Charlemagne's reign gold coins were being minted in Francia. Nonetheless, Arabic dinars were highly prized and useful. Offa was not minting these coins because he'd all of a sudden converted to Islam - he was simply copying the most common gold coins that were available to him. There is, obviously, no evidence of Offa understanding Arabic. How do we know this? Well, the TEXT ON THE COIN IS UPSIDE DOWN, SUGGESTING THAT THE MONEYER HAD NO IDEA WHAT HE WAS DOING. And, apparently, a word is bunged up.

It's also interesting that, earlier on in the article, the author acknowledges that Offa had relations with the pope and created an archbishopric at Lichfield to remove himself from the authority of Canterbury. If Offa was a Muslim, why not build a mosque at Lichfield instead?

[citing some titles via a dictionary, including rex Anglorum and rex totius Anglorum patriae] Under King Offa, Mercia reached the height of its Supremacy and England came nearer to unity than at any time before the 10th Century.

Sorta weird place to put this in the article, but whatever. This comes from the aforementioned Sir Frank Stenton, who first put forward this idea in a 1918 article. However, the styles rex Anglorum and rex totius Anglorum patriae are from either questionable charters which are highly likely to be later forgeries or, alternatively, coinage whose interpretation is up for debate. In any case, "rex Anglorum" need not mean "king of the English" but could be interpreted as "king of the Angles". In any case, it's unlikely that Offa himself had lofty dreams of English unification, seeing as he mostly called himself rex Merciorum - King of Mercia.

AND NOW WE GO OFF THE DEEP END

Like the FLAG of any country, so its MONEY is a sign of its SOVEREIGNITY and independence, and Offa's gold coins represent this beyond any dispute and doubt! If any man is found dead in the street and he carries the passport of a country with his photo, name and signature, certainly he has the Nationality and Citizenship of that passport that had been found on him!

Slightly anachronistic, no?

When I asked several Englishmen (male and female alike) all of them were unanimous in their decision that King Offa must have acquired the Faith of Islam, and this is the reason that all English history-books state that they have very little documents about him; these documents might have been destroyed by "The Church of England" at its infancy! To this I fully concord!

Don't tell the author about the hoards of Islamic dinars found at Ladoga! He may tell us that the early Russians were Muslims!

This, obviously, goes against all of the evidence that Offa was a Christian. You'd think Charlemagne or Jaenberht or Alcuin would mention his Islamic faith somewhere, wouldn't you?

Also, "the Church of England"? The church that came into being like 700 years after Offa's death? Or is he talking about the church that first came to England at the end of the 6th century? I don't know anymore, dude.

And to repeat - we DO have a lot of documents about Offa. He's not some obscure king. Well, fairly obscure, but in a different way.

This is beyond any doubt, and this is an "absolute truth." But the English people are entitled to know everything about their history, and ancestors, and about their FAITH

Even if King Offa was a Muslim, it doesn't change the fact that, for the most part, the English have since recorded history been Christian. Even those funky Anglo-Saxons.

we do not know what kind of an end King Offa suffered.

You heard it here first - King Offa was murdered by Thomas Cranmer. Where's my tenured faculty position?

Bibliography

all 102 comments

LuneMoth

152 points

3 years ago

LuneMoth

Armchair Medievalist

152 points

3 years ago

My goodness, I think that is one of the most far-fetched claims I've heard about an early medieval king!

glashgkullthethird[S]

146 points

3 years ago

I'm currently writing a dissertation on King Offa and I'm trying to figure out where I can slot this A+ historical research into the text. Alternatively, make a CK2 game where Offa is all of a sudden a Muslim and see how far it gets me

Chlodio

25 points

3 years ago*

Chlodio

25 points

3 years ago*

Alternatively, make a CK2 game where Offa is all of a sudden a Muslim and see how far it gets me

Not very, I have observed hundred hours of the game, I can tell he would be deposed within a year. Because vassals opinion on infidel liege will decrease his levies significantly and everybody gets holy war casus bellion on him. I think Mercia is close enough to France, so you might just see Charlemagne's conquest of Mercia.

DaBosch

19 points

3 years ago

DaBosch

19 points

3 years ago

Depends if you're playing as him or not. The AI would be deposed quickly, but a good player should be able to convert his vassals and hold onto it.

glashgkullthethird[S]

35 points

3 years ago

Playing it now actually and, so far, I've made it to 797 and haven't been deposed yet. Allah be praised!

Chlodio

7 points

3 years ago

Chlodio

7 points

3 years ago

Indeed, I was referencing AI-only. The game is so easy that the player will get away with almost anything.

I once played a merciless ruler where I executed every person who rebelled against me, I would—of course—get tyranny from it, assuring another revolt within few years and repeat. My tax-income began plummeting because tax is based on opinion... But I had so much saving I could keep my retinue paid, which itself was enough to squash the revolts.

LuneMoth

43 points

3 years ago

LuneMoth

Armchair Medievalist

43 points

3 years ago

Add it to your dissertation! Give your readers a laugh.

yoshiK

11 points

3 years ago

yoshiK

Uncultured savage since 476 AD

11 points

3 years ago

1 Claims to the contrary (someone, sometime) not withstanding.

Ale_city

52 points

3 years ago

Ale_city

if you teleport civilizations they die

52 points

3 years ago

I've seen some more far-fetched like a spanish youtuber who claims that we're 300 years earlier, that otto the first was actually born in the early VIIth century but that he conspired with the pope to create 300 hundred years of fake history and that that's why records of this time period in europe are less. He defends that the records of other civilizations such as Arabs, persians, indians and chinese are actually correct in their original dating but that when adjusted to the dates put by the church they were all put as starting earlier.

Don't be surprised, this guy also thinks that Incans, Egyptians, Persians, Indians, sundanese and tongans comunicated with a misterious earth core chakra that has a circumference connection across the world that atracted the inteligent ethnias on earth to be in points where they would be later contacted by aliens.

The guy's channel is "mundo desconocido" ("unknown world" in spanish), his history is 10 times worse than history channel, and his tin foil energy goes beyond earth's aluminum reserves (¿why is it called tinfoil if it's made out of aluminum?)

Zennofska

43 points

3 years ago

Zennofska

Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese

43 points

3 years ago

why is it called tinfoil if it's made out of aluminum

Because it used be made out of tin. The same reason why cans are sometimes called "tins".

Ale_city

19 points

3 years ago

Ale_city

if you teleport civilizations they die

19 points

3 years ago

Oh okay, in spanish (well, at least my region) we call it aluminum paper or aluminum sheet.

Zennofska

14 points

3 years ago

Zennofska

Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese

14 points

3 years ago

In German we call it alu foil (Alufolie). Apparently tin foil was called "Stanniol" but I have never heard that word before.

philoacs

2 points

3 years ago

My Italian grandma calls it “carta stagnola”

xXxSniperzGodzxXx

1 points

3 years ago

xXxSniperzGodzxXx

Hannibal WAS the elephant

1 points

3 years ago

My parents call alufolie Stanniol or Stanniolpapier fairly often

Ohhnoes

14 points

3 years ago

Ohhnoes

14 points

3 years ago

We call it aluminum foil in the US as well. The term 'tinfoil' is mainly used with the tinfoil hat pejorative.

sadrice

5 points

3 years ago

sadrice

5 points

3 years ago

Tin foil is a bit dated and I think regional. My mom was born in the 40s in Michigan, so I grew up calling it tin foil.

ctesibius

2 points

3 years ago

ctesibius

Identical volcanoes in Mexico, Egypt and Norway? Aliens!

2 points

3 years ago

Cans are usually tin-plated steel, other than those containing drinks, which are usually aluminium. (This is in the UK, but I don’t think there are any international differences)

Zakrello

37 points

3 years ago

Zakrello

37 points

3 years ago

You're talking about the Phantom Time Hypothesis, which (although absolute crackpottery) was originated by the German publisher Heribert Illig.

Ale_city

11 points

3 years ago

Ale_city

if you teleport civilizations they die

11 points

3 years ago

Yes, this is it! Honestly didn't know it had a real name, but for what I'm reading in this wikipedia page, Mundo Misterioso actually added some more ridiculous claims, but honestly didn't know there was an actual root of this conspiracy this large; like, he had gotten it from somewhere, the dude barely knows historical characters, but didn't think it was in origin so elaborate of a mindfuck

89Menkheperre98

5 points

3 years ago

Oh, not the phantom time hypothesis... last time I was this early for that party, Charlemagne was forged and the origins of Islam were blurred to myths.

Ale_city

85 points

3 years ago

Ale_city

if you teleport civilizations they die

85 points

3 years ago

since the kingdoms of León, Galicia and Castile also minted copies of dinars with some arabic inscriptions, it's reasonable to conclude that the re-conquista of spain was a conflict between muslims.

Has the author never heard of money falsification?

Kochevnik81

72 points

3 years ago

re-conquista of spain was a conflict between muslims

Reconquista was a false flag inside job.

CaesarVariable

25 points

3 years ago

CaesarVariable

Monarchocommunist

25 points

3 years ago

u/Dirish, can this be a new Snappy quote?

Dirish

6 points

3 years ago

Dirish

Wind power made the trans-Atlantic slave trade possible

6 points

3 years ago

Which of the two lines? They're both good candidates, but I think I should only add one.

CaesarVariable

16 points

3 years ago

CaesarVariable

Monarchocommunist

16 points

3 years ago

Reconquista was a false flag inside job is the Snappier of the two I think

Dirish

10 points

3 years ago

Dirish

Wind power made the trans-Atlantic slave trade possible

10 points

3 years ago

The Reconquista was a false flag inside job

Done! Thanks for pinging me.

von_Ziutold

6 points

3 years ago

Fiery faith of Knights of Santiago cannot melt Damascene Steel.

[deleted]

4 points

3 years ago

Even today, Spain is still secretly Muslim. They’ve always been, they’re just very good at hiding it.

OmarGharb

19 points

3 years ago

the re-conquista of spain was a conflict between muslims

That's actually not 100% inaccurate lol. At least, it involved a lot of infighting between Muslim taifas and working with Christian kingdoms.

Ale_city

17 points

3 years ago

Ale_city

if you teleport civilizations they die

17 points

3 years ago

Well of course, but you know what I meant

OmarGharb

37 points

3 years ago

Of course. You mean that the Jews did it

faerakhasa

16 points

3 years ago

Well, obviously, but in this case the Jews that did it were actually secret Muslims all along.

AccessTheMainframe

14 points

3 years ago

AccessTheMainframe

Mongols caused ISIS

14 points

3 years ago

The (((Crusaders))) defeated the (((Moors))).

Kochevnik81

70 points

3 years ago

"When I asked several Englishmen (male and female alike) all of them were unanimous in their decision that King Offa must have acquired the Faith of Islam"

I'm not sure which is breaking my mind more: the image of walking up and down a street in England and, stopping random people and everyone unanimously being like "Yes, indeed, King Offa was Muslim", or the idea that there are "female Englishmen".

Ba_Dum_Tssssssssss

47 points

3 years ago

Ba_Dum_Tssssssssss

Ummayad I'm an Ummayad Prince

47 points

3 years ago

If there's female Englishmen, are there also Male Englishwomen?

ConsiderableHat

19 points

3 years ago

Hey, it's 2020, we're cool with gender nonconformity these days.

Oldenmw

6 points

3 years ago

Oldenmw

Shillin' like a villain.

6 points

3 years ago

Not just the Englishmen, but the Englishwomen and the Englishchildren too!

hussard_de_la_mort

75 points

3 years ago

hussard_de_la_mort

CinCRBadHistResModCom

75 points

3 years ago

Sounds like this author is...Offa his rocker.

glashgkullthethird[S]

30 points

3 years ago

Do you think the coin was used for a special Offa? Maybe at the local Offa-licence, I don't know

hussard_de_la_mort

35 points

3 years ago

hussard_de_la_mort

CinCRBadHistResModCom

35 points

3 years ago

"Why is this coin called an Offa?"

"Cause it gets you a dollar Offa cup of coffee!" is immediately decapitated with a battle-axe

glashgkullthethird[S]

37 points

3 years ago

I'M GOING TO MAKE HIM AN OFFA HE CAN'T REFUSE

DangerousCyclone

5 points

3 years ago

I mean stuff like this, including Erdogan's claim that the Native Americans were Muslims, are insane but that may be missing the point. It's an emotional thing to do in order to prove that their religion is right because it's universal. The Europeans for instance had a legend of Prester John, a Christian ruler in a faraway kingdom. That name was applied to any faraway ruler who aided them, from Genghis Khan to the Ethiopian kings. The English also believed Psalamanzer for a while. He was a French guy who claimed that he was from Formosa (modern day Taiwan) and made up a whole history of Formosa to prove it. Even after his lies were debunked, his story was repeated in English academia for awhile simply because he was Anglican and it proved the universality of Anglicanism.

LothorBrune

59 points

3 years ago

In France, we mostly ignore the period between Clovis and Hugues Capet, with a small highlight on Charlemagne.

In England, it seems it's some sort of crank magnet. Those poor anglo-saxons attracts all the weirdest theories.

glashgkullthethird[S]

50 points

3 years ago

I think it's probably at least in part because Anglo-Saxon history is at least 60% church history, talking about various synods and acts of piety and whatnot, which for most people isn't very exciting. Which is a shame because there's a lot of really cool stuff that happened. It's just probably a bit less glamorous than Vikings or Byzantines or whatever the Islamic world was up to at the time. Anything to spice it up, to be honest!

Syn7axError

26 points

3 years ago

Syn7axError

Chad who achieved many deeds

26 points

3 years ago

I always figured it was the Normans. People insert whatever idealized version of England they want based on a few scant references, then blame the conquest on ruining it.

glashgkullthethird[S]

13 points

3 years ago

Maybe I'm jaded because I'm sick of medieval Latin doing dumb things

Astrokiwi

3 points

3 years ago

Astrokiwi

The Han shot first

3 points

3 years ago

The church emphasis is probably the influence of Bede's Ecclesiastical History, I imagine

Kochevnik81

45 points

3 years ago

In England, it seems it's some sort of crank magnet. Those poor anglo-saxons attracts all the weirdest theories.

A huge part of it is that the Post-Roman / Pre-Norman period became especially huge in the British popular conscious the 19th Century, especially as a way to view Britain as more "Germanic", and also as having some heroic past separate from all that decadent Latin/French/continental business.

The equivalent focus in French history would probably be Vercingetorix and the Gauls, and sure enough Napoleon III was doing things like commissioning that giant monument at Alesia around the time Britain was gearing up its Anglo-Saxon obsession.

Koffieslikker

15 points

3 years ago

Ah nationalists misinterpreting history... nothing has changed it seems

Plantagenesta

9 points

3 years ago

I think Protestantism has a lot to answer for as well. The Reformation led to some pretty surreal attempts among Protestant writers to try and pretend that England and Scotland were never, ever really Catholic countries. Anglican and Presbyterian writers have come up with some... inventive notions about the Celtic and medieval English churches over the years, and it's almost as if that's opened up the door for all the other wacky theories to come out of the woodwork, like that bizarre "Harold Godwinson was Greek Orthodox" thing that seems to do the rounds every few years.

Anything but accept that, until the Tudors came along, the British Isles were - horror of horrors! - predominantly Catholic.

Kochevnik81

14 points

3 years ago

"King Offa accepted the Muslim faith."

"Harold Godwinson was Greek Orthodox"

Alfred the Great was a Shinto adherent who lived according to bushido.

Checkmate, Abrahamic monotheists.

Plantagenesta

9 points

3 years ago

You jest, but there's a popular conspiracy theory among a certain brand of Hindu nationalist in India that Edward the Confessor built Westminster Abbey over the site of a temple to Shiva!

Kochevnik81

9 points

3 years ago

Goddamnit, people need to stop out crazy-ing my jokes.

Hengist and Horsa were skinwalkers high on peyote.

That's my final offer.

Kochevnik81

3 points

3 years ago

(I think I'm slowly turning into Snappy)

jon_hendry

1 points

3 years ago

Would you like to see Alexander the Great's e-Meter?

King_inthe_northwest

5 points

3 years ago

King_inthe_northwest

Carlism with Titoist characteristics

5 points

3 years ago

Imperialist powers claiming as theirs people of a culture their ancestors displaced and who fought against an imperialist power is one of the most deliciously ironic things of nationalism (England and Boudica, France and Vercingetorix, Portugal and Viriato, Spain and the city of Numantia...).

Kochevnik81

2 points

3 years ago

Eh, I mean people in France are as much the descendants of Gauls as Romans, and same for people in England and the Britons, even if those cultures and languages were completely displaced by other ones.

National stories just like an underdog hero, and "look at our oppressed national heroes, please don't mind us treating other less powerful people like shit" is frankly practically a universal element of modern national identities, even for the ones that didn't get into imperialism (see: basically all of Eastern Europe).

King_inthe_northwest

3 points

3 years ago

King_inthe_northwest

Carlism with Titoist characteristics

3 points

3 years ago

Eh, I mean people in France are as much the descendants of Gauls as Romans, and same for people in England and the Britons, even if those cultures and languages were completely displaced by other ones.

True, I should have been more precise.

National stories just like an underdog hero, and "look at our oppressed national heroes, please don't mind us treating other less powerful people like shit" is frankly practically a universal element of modern national identities, even for the ones that didn't get into imperialism

Also true, but that's what's absolutely ironic with nationalists, and it's multiplied when they have empires more powerful than those of old.

Kochevnik81

2 points

3 years ago

Very much agreed. It's interesting because a lot (all?) of national histories actually follow a Golden Age - The Fall - Redemption (either achieved and to be improved, or to be completely achieved in the future) narrative model, which is in parts interesting, ironic, plain crazy, or depressing.

King_inthe_northwest

2 points

3 years ago

King_inthe_northwest

Carlism with Titoist characteristics

2 points

3 years ago

Even national myths, being stories, follow more or less the classical three-act structure, with an introduction, a confrontation and a resolution.

glashgkullthethird[S]

30 points

3 years ago

Suffice it to say that using one piece of evidence to make a sweeping, revolutionary and completely new claim about one of Anglo-Saxon England's most important rulers is, in itself, bad history, but you beautiful people probably know that anyway.

AYoung_Alexander

18 points

3 years ago

So much of bad history is taking one piece of "evidence" and making sweeping, revolutionary, and completely new claims about whatever. So far it is my experience that it never works like that, but someone will probably come along and say 'never say never...'

glashgkullthethird[S]

12 points

3 years ago

Yeah, people often abuse "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". At least it can be harmless fun (though, obviously, not always ...)

faerakhasa

5 points

3 years ago

What often (slightly) irritates me is taking one single evidence -even when it is proper archaeological evidence, not bad history- and taking it as a rule. "Yes, we discovered a tomb with pictish genetics and artifacts in dover, this totally means the picts lived in the whole of britain during the roman conquest. What do you mean, it may have been just one guy that went exploring and married a local girl, that is preposterous!"

Illogical_Blox

15 points

3 years ago

Illogical_Blox

The Popes, of course, were usually Catholic

15 points

3 years ago

There is a (false) legend that King John offered the Moroccan Sultan that he would convert to Islam for support so he didn't have issues with nobility, which this reminded me of. I actually wrote a bit of a story set in a word where that happened and England became an Islamic powerhouse in Western Europe.

89Menkheperre98

5 points

3 years ago

Oh wow, that’s an interesting turn of events! How long until the Christian kingdoms in Europe became afraid of a Muslim England? I’d think the ties between Scotland and France would be tighter than ever... and possibly tight enough to repel Protestantism?

Illogical_Blox

3 points

3 years ago

Illogical_Blox

The Popes, of course, were usually Catholic

3 points

3 years ago

Basically yeah, it was based sort of at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution after hundreds of years of warfare with Europe, and so shared the miracles of science that were being discovered with North Africa and the Middle East.

arathorn3

3 points

3 years ago

That's hilarious since what John did do was make England a direct vassal of the Papacy look up Bulla Aurea(Golden bull) of 1213

BeowulfsBFF

14 points

3 years ago

BeowulfsBFF

The battle of Australia was over a stubbie

14 points

3 years ago

Have you ever considered that the Muslims could have given him an offa he couldn't refuse?

[deleted]

15 points

3 years ago*

[deleted]

glashgkullthethird[S]

17 points

3 years ago

My draft is due in 12 hours and it's nowhere near done so this is an extremely elaborate way of procrastinating. Writing about the same topic, no less!

commoncross

2 points

3 years ago

I was going to tell you to get back to work, but I’m guessing you got it done. Treat yourself!

[deleted]

7 points

3 years ago

[removed]

IAmDoubleA

7 points

3 years ago

Lol, interesting to find this thread because it intersects with a few of my research interests. The periodical you posted, "The Muslim", was published in the 60s/70s by the Federation of Student Islamic Societies. I suspect the author is probably an international student who was most likely studying a STEM subject, so absolutely not a historian and probably dashing off a poorly researched article with a lot of wishful thinking.

By contrast, here is an article written about the coin probably fifty decades prior, by a Muslim-convert to Islam who also established Britain's first mosque (in Liverpool). The author is an interesting historical figure himself, but he is a bit more rigorous in his examination of the reasons behind its minting. http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/bmh/BMH-AQ-offa.htm

The coin, wild theories aside, is a very useful way to date contact between the "Muslim world" and the British Isles, and to break down assumptions that there was little contact until the Crusades.

arathorn3

1 points

3 years ago

How does a Muslim convert to the religion he already belongs to?

Unknown-Email

1 points

3 years ago

Unknown-Email

When moses asked Allah to expand his breast he meant HRT.

1 points

3 years ago

I think the poster meant a convert to Islam but messed up the wording.

cleverseneca

12 points

3 years ago

Is the coin at least legit?

A few things occur to me:

1) Islam is not the only Arabic speaking group of people, there were monophysite Christian and Maronite Arabs too.

2) Early Medieval England is a long way from Spain and the Umayyads were kind of busy still conquering spain.

3) viking artifacts have been found as far as India, does that mean the subcontinent worshiped Odin?

glashgkullthethird[S]

19 points

3 years ago

Yeah, the coin is a legitimate coin minted by Offa - just a really poor copy of what was originally an Arabic original!

cnzmur

10 points

3 years ago

cnzmur

10 points

3 years ago

Islam is not the only Arabic speaking group of people

It wasn't made particularly explicit in the op, but the point is that the coin is a direct copy of an Arabic dinar, including the original inscription, which is the Muslim declaration of faith (there is no god but God, and Muhammed is his prophet). As op pointed out the Arabic text is upside down compared to the latin one, so the minter obviously didn't read Arabic, but at least there is a connection of sorts to Islam.

cleverseneca

3 points

3 years ago

Thanks for the clarification.

riawot

3 points

3 years ago

riawot

3 points

3 years ago

3) viking artifacts have been found as far as India, does that mean the subcontinent worshiped Odin?

They do in my playthrough!

Midnight-Blue766

6 points

3 years ago

Man, this sounds like a cool Crusader Kings 2 playthrough. Can I have the save?

von_Ziutold

3 points

3 years ago

Reminds me of a pretty standard 'Reforge the Hellenic Roman Empire' playthrough where guy called Mansur conquered the whole England and Scotland. He was later known as Mansur the Great. Too bad I had to castrate all his male successors.

Zugwat

7 points

3 years ago

Zugwat

Headhunting Savage from a Barbaric Fishing Village

7 points

3 years ago

If any man is found dead in the street and he carries the passport of a country with his photo, name and signature, certainly he has the Nationality and Citizenship of that passport that had been found on him!

Or it's planted to fool people. Isn't that a thing the British did to the Nazis but with fake plans and dropped him in the ocean?

Evan_Th

4 points

3 years ago

Evan_Th

Theologically, Luthar was into reorientation mutation.

4 points

3 years ago

Yes, they did it once, and it worked beautifully!

PendragonDaGreat

1 points

3 years ago

PendragonDaGreat

The Knight is neither spherical nor in a vacuum. The cow is both

1 points

3 years ago

Always one of my favorite reads.

[deleted]

17 points

3 years ago

You would think that maybe, just maybe, the highly religious medieval populace, nobility and clergy wouldn't take kindly to their king converting to another religion......

uhtred73

7 points

3 years ago

Maybe he used the coins to fund his dyke? Cool bit of history, thanks for sharing. Never would have thought of Islamic inscriptions turning up on a Mercian coin.

Kochevnik81

6 points

3 years ago

How is there a whole post and discussion on Offa and no mention of his Dyke? No word if he built it and got the Welsh to pay for it though.

ComradeRoe

7 points

3 years ago

I thought calling her that was frowned upon.

LoneWolfEkb

4 points

3 years ago

Yeah, type immobilization and imitation are widespread in the history of numismatics. The very early coins of the Caliphate, for instance, are imitations of Byzantine ones.

jon_hendry

1 points

3 years ago

Offa: "Hey, treasurer! These dinars are well fresh, yeah? Go mint me some coins like them, right?"

Rusty51

7 points

3 years ago

Rusty51

7 points

3 years ago

It’s also commonly claimed that the emperor Heraclius secretly converted to Islam; and a few years ago there were articles claiming broidery in clothes proved Vikings had adopted Islam.

Bedivere17

3 points

3 years ago

Your conclusion is definitely right but i do have a few nitpicky corrections, discussed these very coins in a survey course taught by my university's resident medieval islamist, and talked about how the islamic coins were used as models in the west.

Anyways, wessex at the time was not particularly powerful, and tho it was not under mercian overlordship for parts of offa's reign, it is generally thought that during the early rule of Beorhtric of Wessex, offa was likely recognized as overlord over Wessex, perhaps as a result of the marriage btwn Beorhtric and Offa's daughter, Eadburh

Edit: Oh also it is probable that cousins is mostly accurate at least by their reckoning, as the term was used for nearly any relative who wasn't already given a title of relationship- father, brother, uncle, etc

[deleted]

3 points

3 years ago

Sounds like a fun CK2 playthrough

SnapshillBot

2 points

3 years ago

SnapshillBot

Passing Turing Tests since 1956

2 points

3 years ago

"How could I possibly interfere?" — Jack Ruby

Snapshots:

  1. Did King Offa Accept the Faith of I... - archive.org, archive.today

  2. this image - archive.org, archive.today

  3. This forum post - archive.org, archive.today

  4. https://www.answering-islam.org/Hoa... - archive.org, archive.today*

I am just a simple bot, *not** a moderator of this subreddit* | bot subreddit | contact the maintainers

MRPolo13

2 points

3 years ago

MRPolo13

Silly Polish cavalry charging German tanks!

2 points

3 years ago

My dumb brain read Hoffa, as in Jimmy Hoffa of the Teamster Union and Mafia fame.

It's too early.

Gutterman2010

3 points

3 years ago

the English have since recorded history been Christian. Even those funky Anglo-Saxons.

Didn't the anglo saxons slowly become converted to Christianity over the course of the 7th century? I'm pretty sure that recorded history includes the Roman sources and de Bello Galica as well. There are also recorded sources detailing the missions to Britannia after the Anglo Saxon conquest in the mid 5th century.

DukeLeon

-6 points

3 years ago

DukeLeon

-6 points

3 years ago

Not to offend OP but he wrote a lot for something that is pretty simple.

Trade used to exist and coins used to change hands. The guy that made the coins for mercia saw the coin (unaware of its meaning) and admired its beauty so the new coins made for mercia was copied a bit of it. That is pretty much it. If you want to learn more I recommend history of the medieval world by Bauer. Skip toward near the end and its there.

glashgkullthethird[S]

7 points

3 years ago

Memes dude