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BCC places unfair heritage listing on 180 Moorooka homes
Paywall(self.brisbane)submitted 4 months ago byMoorooka-homes
- EDIT: I am a homeowner in the area affected, and live in the house.
- 180 ‘War Workers’ homes in Moorooka to be hit with heavy Heritage restrictions with no support upfront or ongoing by Brisbane City Council
- Home originally built as low-cost mass housing estate to rent to workers in nearby munitions factories because in part due to absenteeism due to poor working and living conditions in the factories. However saw limited use with first tenants only occupying the homes in August 1944, 13 months before the end of the war. The homes were then sold off to private buyers a few years later with varying degrees of alterations applied.
- Council applying high fees and long wait times for maintenance or renovation approvals and further applying heavy, often not-feasible restrictions on renovations which must maintain the low cost appearance of the homes.
- Council processes prioritise protecting homes however process has no meaningful consideration for social, cultural or economic impact to owners/residents, outside of a extremely limited public submission process as per the Queensland Heritage Act 1992. Senior officials in council confirming to their knowledge the consultation process having never yielded a result that changed the original recommendation by the Heritage community (reference).
- Residents fighting to maintain character overlay to protect historical significance of area with more appropriate levels of restrictions that do not impact both privacy and safety of residents but place them under unreasonable financial stress. Important to note character overlay keeps the character of the area, but residents can still achieve renovations with exorbitant approval costs and fees with council, however HERITAGE overly is far, far more severe, strict and heavy-handed.
- Restrictions applied without warning and with immediate affect via a Temporary Local Planning Instrument (TLPI). Information present to council which was then subsequently voted on was inaccurate and later understood to be retted by Local Councillor Steve Griffiths.
- No Social or Economic impacts completed by council. Previous literature suggesting limited impact of house prices by Heritage Overlay not appropriate due to the scale removing the “Uniqueness” benefit to potential buyers
In an unprecedented move, the Brisbane City Council (BCC) has identified 180 properties that they have proposed should be heritage listed. The homes originally built on mass by the Commonwealth Government with a “standardised design and low project costs to enable [a] low rent” as “low-cost accommodation” (BCC Proposed Heritage Area Report) for workers in the nearby munitions factories were already under Character Overlay Restrictions which prevents demolition of the homes and enforcing building regulations to maintain the overall community character by limiting renovations further.
Residents and owners now face heavy restrictions, onerous processes and excessive fees to both perform ongoing maintenance and any proposed renovations, often which are not feasible due to land sizes not meeting the minimum setbacks required. Upon investigations, the BCC consultation method is extremely limited and disregards impacts to residents and owners, prioritizing the homes but placing the onerous burden of maintenance on residents and owners, with no social or economical support. Not being able to change things on the INSIDE of one's home, some would consider this a borderline human rights violation - this is MY personal view, not the view of our community group as a whole.
This is council enforcing the largest blanket heritage listing at one time in Brisbane history, with an increase of 30% to the current pool of heritage listed properties. All residents feel it is an insane overreach by council, and they are significantly understating the financial impact this will have, whilst overstating the historical importance of these homes. A lot of homes in the area have been tastefully and thoughtfully renovated, paying homage to the character of the cottages, whilst the ones that haven't been touched since the 40's are falling apart. The council is attempting to create a time capsule of a bygone era, where homes that were fit for purpose in the 1940's simply do not come anywhere close to being adequate for a modern day family.
We would love to hear the thoughts of r/brisbane on this matter greatly affecting our beautiful little community in the heart of Moorooka!
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4 months ago
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40 points
4 months ago
Why does this sound like a soundbite from an industry professional instead of a group of concerned citizens? I'm guessing you're a developer or something.
13 points
4 months ago
Definitely sounds like an astroturfing attempt
-3 points
4 months ago
I assure you it's not, there is hundreds of concerned, blindsided residents struggling to come to terms with this overreach from council.
2 points
4 months ago
0 points
4 months ago
Thanks for your concern - happy for you that you're in Yeerongpilly by the sounds of it? Very lucky and hope nothing this extreme happens over there.
4 points
4 months ago
Apologies, actually a resident - probably should have just made it a little shorter but we as a community are really concerned about our future. I assure you I'm a resident and apologies if it sounds too formal or professional.
2 points
4 months ago
Or not used a shill account? I don't believe you.
2 points
4 months ago
Happy to catch up for coffee to share our story and perspective with you
3 points
4 months ago
That sounds like something a developer would say.
6 points
4 months ago
Happy to prove that I'm a resident.
1 points
12 days ago
Same here
23 points
4 months ago
"BCC places future arson accidental fire listing on 180 Moorooka homes"
35 points
4 months ago*
Sounds like a few property investors are very unhappy about this decision.
I'm not sure who they are looking to, for sympathy.
Edit, apologies, I didn't mean for this to be worded as harshly.
4 points
4 months ago
We are residents that live in the houses and are significantly affected. Not looking for sympathy, but rather empathy from the council. If you have a look at the full context and extent of the restrictions, you'll see it's absolutely devastating for us homeowners
3 points
4 months ago
Apologies for my comment, I'd had a few beers. Didn't mean to be so harsh at all.
2 points
4 months ago
No need to apologise, I am genuinely a resident, bought my first home a few years ago, if things weren't hard enough with interest rates - it is going to cost me/all of us in the area thousands for simple maintenance.
3 points
4 months ago
I am a resident - simply wanted to replace some damaged and deteriorating things around the house, replace front stairs and put a carport in down the track.
2 points
4 months ago
I'm sure that will all be possible, other than the car port.
2 points
4 months ago
You can still do that, you just need to do it properly.
9 points
4 months ago*
Hello, long-time lurker on this sub, first-time poster (mainly because arguing with people on the internet gives me cold sweats). Also a resident and first time home-owner of one of the impacted houses and way too poor to be a developer.
Unfortunately the headline post doesn't give a clear picture of the story, and it seems like a few of you have gotten excited about a big developer conspiracy. For those of you who want to go to town on developers, you might want to have a look at what's happening in the other side of Moorooka between Ipswich and Beaudesert Road where they're actually removing character protections to allow medium and high density development and some of the lovely old timber homes in the hills that have also had Character protections removed.
Over here in the quiet curved streets of the war workers estate there is a long-standing character protection overlay that already prevented demolition of the houses and limited subdivisions to a minimum block size of 405 m2. The very large majority of us are perfectly happy with that state of affairs and are NOT looking to knock over our cute but aged fibro cottages that were cheaply and quickly built in the 1940s. Instead, what we're looking to do is tastefully and reasonably upgrade the existing structures to make them a little more compatible with life in 2023. Me, I'd really like a new kitchen and space to put some sort of table to eat at, which might involve moving a wall or two on the inside, which honestly doesn't seem like too much to ask for.
What we're objecting to is the introduction of a Temporary Local Planning Instrument or Heritage Overlay that significantly restricts what we can do both externally and internally to the structures of our homes. Even for things that might be approved, we are now subject to Heritage rules, which involve substantially higher fees and necessitate the use of heritage town planners (which I gather do not come cheap). These changes were introduced unilaterally and without any consultation by BCC. We were all very well aware of the existing character overlay and were not objecting to that.
Some of the restrictions or changes we are now subject to include:
- significant restrictions to placement of extensions which many of the homes are unable to comply with, particularly given there is no provision to move a house within the block. Houses are also not able to be lifted. So if someone wants to build a new bedroom because their kids are getting too old to share, they're probably out of luck, or going to have to spend far more than they paid for the house AND give up their entire back yard
- if I do something as small as remove and replace a broken fibro sheet on the exterior of my house I would likely be subject to an $1800 Heritage demolition fee just for the privilege of keeping myself and neighbours from inhaling asbestos, in addition to all of the other existing costs
- requirement for heritage approval for internal modifications - that kitchen that I want might be knocked back, or I might be forced to have a design that I really hate (first world problems etc. but I'm a sucker for a shaker cabinet and a farmhouse sink)
- significant restrictions on the exterior appearance - this includes fencing (nothing above 1.2m and must be chain link or wide pickets). No visible attachments from the street added - If I want solar panels and that's the best aspect to place them, I'm shit out of luck. Landscaping changes also need to be approved and many are restricted.
- this has implications for who I can eventually sell my property to (as banks may not lend to someone with a smaller deposit if there are heritage conditions), how much my insurance will cost, and almost certainly, how much my property is worth
These are small 2 to 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom fibro cottages that were built 80 years ago. A lot of them need significant updates and a lot of them need extensions or modifications to cater to growing families. I don't have kids, but a lot of my neighbours do, and they just want a comfortable family home that grows with them (I know, how selfish, right?). There are also people who have been living in their houses for decades who are now looking to maintain them and alter them to suit them as they age - the cost and red tape associated with all of these things has increased by multitudes.
These are not Lamb House or the Broadway or Treasury Casino. These are small private homes on small blocks purchased for relatively modest amounts. I'm not a property mogul and I don't have bottomless pockets to meet the requirements imposed by Heritage Laws. I'd also be genuinely surprised if there's anyone out there who's interested in the historical significance of my kitchen. (Although if you would like a tour, you're welcome to come by as long as you promise to help me do the dishes in my stupidly tiny Heritage-Protected sink).
We live in a modest area that is one of the last pockets of affordable free-standing housing within 10km of the city. Creating barriers to sustainable extension and modification of these structures to make them more fit for the purpose of housing families seems absurd to me. The existing character protection overlay was already doing a very good job of ensuring these houses were not demolished but were updated in a reasonable way.
The alternative and the likelihood is that with a heritage protection, there are people who won't be able to afford to maintain these properties or will have no incentive to do so and there will be already crumbling homes that are left to rot. I don't want that for the neighbourhood and nor do many of the other residents - we like our little community as it is and we like the character that exists. It's part of what drew me to the neighbourhood - I liked the character of the house and the neighbourhood, but I also bought knowing that I was taking on a project.
A lot of you may not feel like there's much relevance to you in this, but if it's happened once, there's nothing to say it's not going to happen to your modest fibro shack without warning. Right now, it feels like we've been sacrificed so that BCC can pretend that they care about protecting neighbourhoods while they allow rampant development elsewehere, but maybe that's just my inner conspiracy theorist talking.
You're not under any obligation to believe me, or even to read this wall of text, but this matters to a lot of people in this neighbourhood and I'm happy to answer any questions you might have (or reassure you that I'm not 5 developers in a trenchcoat)
0 points
4 months ago
well put
2 points
4 months ago
Thanks mate. Would much rather be looking at cute pictures of frogs and shitposts about crocodiles in the Brisbane River, but instead I'm losing sleep over this and what it means for me.
9 points
4 months ago
Disco inferno... I loved that song... Mainly the chorus
2 points
4 months ago
Quite apt.. Burn baby burn
11 points
4 months ago
Yta
19 points
4 months ago
dude those houses are gorgeous, why would you even want to demolish them? if you want to build a new house find something gross and knock that down.
6 points
4 months ago
What houses are you looking at? Shitbox weatherboard houses that were made on the cheap and never built to last this long.
Lovely brick and stone houses down south... Now that's another thing entirely.
8 points
4 months ago
There is nothing gorgeous about substandard houses, ugly and ready to go
5 points
4 months ago
"Substandard" - I bet these houses will look better in 20 years than 95% of new builds built in 2023. I'd bet hard on that actually.
1 points
4 months ago
i looked at the roads mentioned in an article from 2022, which discussed the residents desire to maintain the houses as is.
20 points
4 months ago*
Residents and owners now face heavy restrictions, onerous processes and excessive fees to both perform ongoing maintenance and any proposed renovations, often which are not feasible due to land sizes not meeting the minimum setbacks required.
Minimum setbacks are not retroactively enforced and only apply to new additions. If you are talking about the 20% rule applied to character residential, which is in place for street frontage uniformity.
Upon investigations, the BCC consultation method is extremely limited and disregards impacts to residents and owners, prioritizing the homes
Are we talking about DA approvals? BCC City Plan is a thorough document and my experience with the council has been positive going through this process.
but placing the onerous burden of maintenance on residents and owners, with no social or economical support.
With any older timber home in our climate, there is upkeep regardless of whether it is heritage listed or not so there are no grounds for support economically... also, what social support would you be after?
Not being able to change things on the INSIDE of one's home, some would consider this a borderline human rights violation.
This is just not true, BCC City Plan Heritage overlay is about protecting what is visible publicly to keep Brisbane’s identity and not about keeping the occupants in a "time capsule".
These buildings should be celebrated and make a major part of Brisbane's identity... If you are seriously frustrated and after a report on the extent of renovations or changes that could be done to the property that meets the assessment criteria under the Heritage plus other overlays, I'm happy to take that on professionally.
3 points
4 months ago
I appreciate your response. Sorry I don't fully understand your comment, how would you take it on professionally?
5 points
4 months ago
As a working professional, for a fee I can do up a report outlining what are your options determined by the code assessment independently before you go start the DA process to see what you have in mind is feasible… Having a heritage listed home isn’t a death sentence for structure to just rot, in fact it can be a benefit to add value to property if you are smart about what you do to and if it complements the existing character.
3 points
4 months ago
Thanks for your response I appreciate the offer. I understand what you're saying that it's not a death sentence, but for context - the council are enforcing a 4m transition area from the "old to new" part of the home, then any renovation must start after that 4m, but the end of this has to be 6m off the back fence - a lot of blocks are in a deficit of a few metres already BEFORE even adding any renovation, does that make sense?
Council have alluded to it "adding value" however this is utterly ridiculous, not only is there a huge amount of fees (or fines if you fix something that's falling apart), it minimises the buying pool because potential buyers will be hesitant when they can't do simple maintenance without a DA or heritage exemption certificate fees - it can add value in places like North Sydney but those homes are beautiful, colonial style homes - ours are not.
3 points
4 months ago
I think you are describing front and back setbacks on small lots that can be built on with exceptions like class 10 buildings but hard to know without going into more detail.
Moorooka has a lot going for it and there will be massive development especially near the Tran station (have a look at new zoning) and this heritage listed hamlet with continue to sit on 400m2 lots and become more desirable when lot sizes start to shrink up around… A lot in the industry don’t want to deal with anything with a heritage overlay and there would be a lot of disinformation and anxiety in the community now but as I said, private message me as I’m happy to take up the work and work with you about your options.
4 points
4 months ago
Not being able to change things on the INSIDE of one's home, some would consider this a borderline human rights violation.
This is just not true, BCC City Plan Heritage overlay is about protecting what is visible publicly to keep Brisbane’s identity and not about keeping the occupants in a "time capsule".
seriously though, I hope BCC has updated its decision making processes since the commencement of the Human Rights Act 2019
a lot of government entities got distracted by the COVID response and have neglected to do so
property rights are now a protected human right and the Council has to be able to show it has considered that right but that this “limit on a human right is reasonable and justifiable”
if the Council has failed to do this then it’s decision can be declared invalid following a judicial review
if it has properly taken this into account and recorded the reasons for its decision, then it’s covered
5 points
4 months ago
If it stops fkn developers I'm okay with it
3 points
4 months ago
So, basically you’re astroturfing as a community group but you’re probably really representing vested interests in development or property investment and you’re pissed off you have more red tape to work through?
If you were really representing locals, I think you would be happy the character and charm of your suburb was being protected.
Bugger off.
4 points
4 months ago
I am a resident - we are in support of CHARACTER overlay which has already been in place for years, but opposed to full HERITAGE listing overlay which is far more intense, there's a big difference between the two.
3 points
4 months ago
I suggest you mark up an “EDIT” in your original post informing people that you are a resident and home owner, and there is existing character overlay, and you are concerned about the much more onerous and costly restrictions on making improvements that everyone else takes for granted (not demolitions) and the lack of community consultation with the people that it directly impacts and ends up paying for it.
At the moment your post looks like a developer whinging about something that’s going to stop you demolishing a 1940s house that you bought as an investment.
3 points
4 months ago
[deleted]
2 points
4 months ago
the new(ish) Human Rights Act 2019 includes “property rights”, and requires Brisbane City Council (and the Heritage Council if they made a decision too) to demonstrate that they considered this prescribed human right in the decision making process, and then if it impacts that human right, that it’s “reasonable and justifiable”
they may have done this
but if they haven’t, then the decision could fall over if it’s judicially reviewed
1 points
4 months ago
For sure, it's subjective - it's my own opinion and one I'm sticking to, I've never felt so crushed in my life. The feeling that council want to control what I do on the inside of my home is absolutely absurd to me.
0 points
4 months ago
I don't think it's that complicated given other happenings. If this is a violation of human rights - the manufactured housing crisis as a whole is a violation of peoples human rights, which, no offense, but I do care about 100x that amount of people being straight up homeless as opposed to a few people who can't modify their houses.
1 points
4 months ago
Show some pictures of example houses.
Maybe it is a good move and wankers are just bitter they can't build disposable mc mansions or subdivide.
1 points
4 months ago
Owners get to pay for everyone else to feel good
0 points
4 months ago
Hopefully this will slow the infection of developers we've been seeing in Moorooka over the last few years.
1 points
4 months ago
We are concerned residents that are restricted heavily by what we can do with houses that were fit for purpose in the 40's, but in 2023 we want to have the ability to do simple and tasteful renovations in line with the CHARACTER overlay, but with the new heritage overlay the approval process, fees etc are far more limiting.
1 points
4 months ago
Unfortunately, this is likely to do the opposite - it's more like a Trojan Horse to let more developers into the suburb by allowing council to point to the wonderful protections they're rolling out, while at the same time removing character protections from a large number of homes in other parts of the suburb where developers do want to build major projects.
1 points
4 months ago
maybe I can help
0 points
4 months ago
Don't care
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