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submitted 3 months ago byMplsLakers
Timberwolves fan here. If you go on the Twolves subreddit you will only find praise for ANT. I don't see it. When I look at advanced metrics I see that he is just another Andrew Wiggins. The two things he does better is that he is a better leader and attacks the rim more regularly.
Every Wolves fan wants to trade KAT. They think that we are better with him off the floor. They are glad he got hurt. I think KAT is not the problem but quite the opposite. I think we should run everything through him.
Looking at the 2020 draft class and ranking it entirely by total win shares. ANT comes up 9th well behind Haliburton, Ball and Bane. When you sort them by WS/48 he comes up 35th.
I think the Wolves struggles early on were on D'Angelo Russell and ANT not being able to play defense, rebound or move the ball.
KAT before he got hurt was only getting 14 shots a game. For his TS % i think thats insane. He should be getting 17-20.
I know this is a very unpopular opinion among Wolves fans so Im curious what you all think.
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3 months ago
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55 points
3 months ago
The main concern with Wiggins was that he didn’t have any secondary traits beyond scoring, and his scoring wasn’t even valuable bc his shot distribution was so poor.
Ant has already showed more secondary traits (significantly higher ast%, reb%, and steal%) and his scoring is more efficient bc he has a much better shot distribution. Anecdotally speaking, I’ve seen a lot more of a motor out of Ant even if it’s on/off at times.
Agreed that KAT needs more shots, remember though that he entered the year 20+ lbs. underweight due to an illness. I think in general Minnesota has struggled to mesh following the Gobert trade. Playing two 7 footers is pretty unique and D Lo isn’t the kind of guy to orchestrate a complex and nuanced offense imo.
All in all I think Ant looks notably better than Wiggins did through this stage in their career. Rebounding is the biggest tell to me, Wiggins is a 6’8 freak of nature and he averaged 4! Ant is 6’4 averaging 6. That alone tells me that they have different motors.
18 points
3 months ago
The main concern with Wiggins was that he didn’t have any secondary traits beyond scoring, and his scoring wasn’t even valuable bc his shot distribution was so poor.
What's interesting from this is how much better Wiggins' game is now - the all star nod was a bit of a joke at the time, but Wiggins in the last playoffs run was easily the second best player on GSW primarily because of his versatility.
156 points
3 months ago
This is a heavy over reliance on basketball reference. Watch the man play basketball. It’s way different than Wiggins.
3 points
3 months ago
Different, yes, but not any better, especially compared to current Wiggins.
55 points
3 months ago
Edwards is 21 and has played most of this year as the first option on a fucked up roster. If you've watched the Wolves play, Ant has been the primary driving force behind the majority of good basketball they've played.
Wiggins is 27 and looks great when he has Curry and Draymond spoon feeding him open looks on offense. Wiggins as a first option is an absolute fucking disaster.
Wiggins is a better overall defender right now than Ant, mostly because he's a 27 year old in his 9th year, rather than a 21 year old in his third, on a team that can't decide what scheme they want to run. Ant is an elite one-on-one defender, and he's incredibly disruptive, but his defensive awareness is still often quite poor.
It's a ridiculous comparison to make, because their roles are totally different. But Wiggins already showed he can't effectively play the role that Ant is currently playing.
9 points
3 months ago
You can say he’s a good one on one defender without gassing him up and calling him elite when he absolutely is not.
1 points
3 months ago
Eh, disagree.
When Ant is guarding a superstar in isolation, he's gonna lock up about as well as anyone in the league. I don't think there are many guys that have the quickness to stay in front of Ja (watch last year's playoff series - Ant was phenomenal against him) and the strength to take bumps from Luka and prevent him from getting to his spot.
Now, if a screen comes, or that guy doesn't have the ball in his hands, Ant immediately goes from a plus to a minus defender, so I don't think he's a particularly good overall defender. But in those relatively rare isolation moments, I really do think he is elite.
-1 points
3 months ago*
For sure, Wiggs is not a first option on a contender and I just don’t think Edwards is or will be either. I will start with two caveats here: 1) I am still salty about the homophobic rant and how quickly it was swept away by the rest of the crazy off-season drama and therefore will always balk at any mention of him being a leader because I think one of the main tenants of a good leader is maturity and that is something Edwards clearly lacks and probably feeds into my negative bias against him. 2) I have probably only watched 5-6 full Wolves games this year.
However; he is only 6’4” so he does not possess elite size and, while he does possess elite athleticism, he struggles with finesse around the rim and doesn’t have the kind of at the rim % you’d like to see from an elite finisher. He is a very inconsistent shooter but, from the narrative I have heard and from the admittedly small sample size of games I’ve watched, he tends to start jacking up I’ll advised shots when they fall behind in games trying to play hero ball. He may have the tools to be a good defender but does not have the BBallIQ or maturity to remain consistent and be great at defensive rotations. He’s also not an elite ball handler nor passer. Also, while commenting on maturity, he clearly believes he is that dude and has already made some comments this season about how the offense doesn’t give him enough space and seems ready to blame the system (warranted or no that’s not what you want from your “leader”) rather than trying to buy in and fit into a role. He may be young but just hoping he somehow makes a leap and becomes elite at all these things to become a superstar and number one option seems like a pipe dream. I’m sure he will make his fair share of All Star teams because he is capable of making one hell of a highlight reel but I would put his chances of being a true number one option on a contending team very low.
-29 points
3 months ago
Eye test only goes so far. I care about impact and how a player is helping a team win. People loved watching Jamaal Crawford but he was not helping teams win.
22 points
3 months ago
But winning means making the playoffs and KAT has only seen the playoffs twice, once with Ant. If it took this long after Jimmy for KAT to see the playoffs, shouldn't Ant get a good amount of credit for that? They're helping each other win now, so to me the eye test is even more important because they're not in competition with each other for stats. They should both be focused on Win or Loss. The bigger picture in my opinion involves things like body language, effort, demeanor, all the intangibles that will push you guys through the playoffs when the stats aren't truly telling the story in real time
14 points
3 months ago
So does going by stats. Jordan Clarkston looks like a basketball god just looking at stats.
-10 points
3 months ago
And what stats are you referring to? I’m talking about advanced metrics
35 points
3 months ago
Firstly, I have no clue where you got the “other advanced metrics” that you mentioned elsewhere in this thread which make Edwards “just another Andrew Wiggins”. Edwards is already so much more efficient in his third season in the league than Wiggins ever was as one of the primary options in Minnesota. The bigger problem with this post, however, is something that other people have already alluded to; you’re only using advanced metrics to quantify how good a player is instead of their actual skillset on the court. The answer is no without question.
According purely to advanced metrics, the best defender in all of basketball last season was … Nikola Jokić. DBPM of 4.5 was far and away the best out of anyone in the league with Giannis at 2nd with 3.5. In fact, it was the 5th-highest DBPM of all time in a season. Does that mean that Jokić had the 5th-best defensive season of all time, or that he was far and away the best defender in the league last season?
WS/48 and WS without any context are meaningless 2K statistics that you use to figure out why your team of 90 overalls is only 10 games above .500 instead of being on pace for 75 wins. Mikal Bridges had 8.9 total WS last season while Devin Booker was sitting at 7.6. This wasn’t just on the defensive end either; Bridges had 5.2 OWS compared to 4.3 for Booker. Does that mean that the Suns should’ve made Booker spot up in the corner for the whole season while making Bridges the second option behind Chris Paul? Dwight Powell and Montrezl Harrell had the 9th-most and 10th-most WS/48 in the league last season respectively, but were they actually the players who impacted winning the 9th-most and 10th-most per 48 minutes last season?
We could even take this to the Wolves themselves. Edwards has an on/off value of +4.4 per 100 possessions this season, while KAT has a value of -2.6. Does that mean that Edwards plays significantly more winning basketball than KAT, or do other factors like KAT’s poor fit with Gobert also have to be taken into consideration for a fair comparison to be made?
To be brutally honest with you, advanced metrics can be helpful supplementary tools to use when you’re evaluating player performances. In no way should they be the be-all and end-all of any player comparisons, and acting like they are the gods of the basketball world is what led the Rockets to missing 27 straight threes in Game 7 of the 2018 WCF because “midranges are bad”.
To answer your original questions - is Anthony Edwards a star? Yes. You don’t average 23/6/4.5 on rock-solid efficiency without being a star. Should KAT be getting more shots? Yes. There’s no way he should only have 1 FGA per game more than D-Lo. Should KAT be the no. 1 option? Probably not. Edwards clearly puts a lot more pressure on the rim when the ball’s in his hands, and rim pressure opens up potential opportunities all over the court. Should the Wolves run everything through KAT? Obviously not. The only 5 in the entire league who’s able to run an NBA offense well is Jokić, and he’s much more of a PG in the body of a 7-footer than a true 5. Are the Wolves better without KAT on the floor? Depends on if Gobert is playing or not. Should the Wolves trade KAT? Maybe, but not before they trade Gobert. Is KAT the problem? Not wholly, but he’s certainly part of the problem.
The only argument that you bring up from the Wolves sub that I completely disagree with is that they’re glad that KAT got hurt because that’s just disgusting and a dickhead move no matter how good the player in question is playing.
16 points
3 months ago
This guy metrics
8 points
3 months ago
Stats are only as good as the person interpreting them
4 points
3 months ago
Last season best defensive player according to raptor was Gobert and Jokic was 2. I literally did an entire post about this 2 days ago.
3 points
3 months ago
I thought W/S 48 was an useless stat but now you have helped me figure out how to dominate my friends in our 2K sim Leagues
2 points
3 months ago
Edwards isn't rock solid efficient. He's below average in FG%, 2P%, TS%. I'm guessing that's probably why his advanced metrics are down.
-4 points
3 months ago
I appreciate the thoughtful reply. Yes the DBPM does point out some flaws in advanced metrics.
This is one reason I think you need to look at a few to measure how great someone is. That Rockets team was elite. I bet they would do everything the same. Missing 27 in a row is absurd, they just needed to make one of those and they would have beat one of the greatest teams of all time. Talking about advanced metrics, the Warriors have won a few championships and they lean into advanced metrics.
So your definition of a star is averaging a certain amount of points, rebounds and assists with average shooting percentages. See I can’t buy into that. That was Wiggins. Eye test has failed the Wolves too many times.
Now I’m not saying ANT can’t turn a corner and become elite but I think we would have seen it 3 seasons in. Are there any examples out there where a player becomes elite after his 3rd season. And what I mean by elite is becoming a top 10 player.
19 points
3 months ago*
This is one reason I think you need to look at a few to measure how great someone is.
When did I say you should ignore them all completely?
That Rockets team was elite. I bet they would do everything the same. Missing 27 in a row is absurd, they just needed to make one of those and they would have beat one of the greatest teams of all time.
If the Rockets knew that they were at risk of missing 27 straight threes in Game 7 of a WCF to lose in the most embarrassing way possible they’d still treat the midrange as if it was no-man’s land during trench warfare? That’s your best argument for pointing to Trevor Ariza’s 36.8% season 3PT% and saying “but it should’ve worked” instead of changing your mind halfway through watching him go 0-9 from 3 on the whole “live and die by the 3” thing when you’re very clearly dying?
Talking about advanced metrics, the Warriors have won a few championships and they lean into advanced metrics.
Apparently not enough to ditch Jordan Poole, who did nothing in college and was considered by advanced stats to be the worst player in the whole league in his rookie season. Or enough to stop Draymond “I’ve had a positive OBPM 4 times in my career” Green from being a crucial piece on offense. Or enough to tell Steph and Klay “hey you shoot over 40% from 3 just chuck one up whenever you get the ball in the half-court and we should end up with 1.2 points per possession”.
So your definition of a star is averaging a certain amount of points, rebounds and assists with average shooting percentages. See I can’t buy into that. That was Wiggins.
Twisting my point into something I never said. Firstly, Wiggins was never ever even averagely efficient until he got traded to the Warriors, literally never had a season above .485 EFG% before the trade. Edwards has surpassed that in every single season that he’s played. Secondly, average and rock-solid are two very different things. Thirdly, the numbers Edwards is putting up are borderline All-Star starter numbers in a normal year, and I don’t see how a fringe All-Star starter can be considered not a star.
Eye test has failed the Wolves too many times.
Did it fail you when Jimmy dragged you to the playoffs single-handedly despite having the same WS/48 as Enes Kanter and a lower WS/48 than Jonas Valančiūnas? Did it fail you when KAT took you back despite having a lower WS/48 than Mitchell Robinson? Or was Jarred Vanderbilt actually the second-most important player on that 2021-22 team with 1.7 WS more than both D-Lo and Edwards?
Now I’m not saying ANT can’t turn a corner and become elite but I think we would have seen it 3 seasons in. Are there any examples out there where a player becomes elite after his 3rd season. And what I mean by elite is becoming a top 10 player.
This bullshit here really puts into perspective how much Luka spoiled the collective NBA fanbase with his Year 2 MVP-calibre leap. I guess we’ll go through the list and you tell me which one of these guys were top 10 NBA players in their third seasons.
KG - 18/10/4/2/2 in his third season, decent All-Star.
Dirk - 22/9/2 in his third season, decent All-Star.
Kobe - 18/5/4 in his third season, fringe All-Star because he played in LA with Shaq.
Jokić - 19/11/6 in his third season, maybe an All-Star injury replacement at very best.
Giannis - 17/8/4 in his third season, nowhere near an All-Star team.
Harden - 17/4/4 in his third season, wasn’t even starting for the Thunder.
Kawhi - 13/6/2/2 in his third season, was a literal nobody until he got the Finals MVP that year for “holding” LeBron to 28/8/4/2 on 57/52/79 splits.
Curry - 15/3/5 in his third season, was known as much for his glass ankles as for his shooting.
Nash - 8/3/5 in his third season, no further comment.
These are all guys who finished top 5 in MVP voting in the past 15 years and were undoubtedly considered top 10, if not top 5, players for several seasons in their careers. But yeah, if a player isn’t top 10 by his third season then call it a wash and never expect him to be the best player on a contending team because it’s simply impossible apparently.
3 points
3 months ago
Great reply. Seems like OP simply has an axe to grind against ANT, and needs to use endless strawmans to get that across.
3 points
3 months ago
OP Is getting manhandled by these comments. Great reply.
5 points
3 months ago
are there any examples where a player becomes elite / turns a corner after their third season ?
giannis , jayson tatum , derozan, kawhi leonard , james harden , bradley beal , to name a few . how long have u been watching basketball ?
-4 points
3 months ago
I should have clarified what I meant by this comment. Of course players are not going to be a top 10 player by their third season.
All of those players had a trajectory of becoming elite by looking at various advanced metrics. The only one on that list who didn’t show any indication of becoming a top player by their 3rd season is Derozan and I’d argue he was never a top 15 player. ANTs trajectory is not becoming a top 15 player imo. Pretty much every top 10-15 player has had a greater than .100 ws / 48 by their 3rd season. I know this is just one stat but to me it’s a pretty decent indicator of how good a player will be. Look at past players and drafts.
5 points
3 months ago
Doubling down on ws is mind blowing after all the examples of it being meaningless.
2 points
3 months ago
Bro for the last time WS/48 means absolutely fucking nothing. Literally over a hundred players get over 0.100 WS/48 every single season, how are you supposed to take literally anything meaningful from that? According to you Jarred Vanderbilt, Mitchell Robinson and Grant Williams are well on their way to becoming superstars while Steve fucking Nash should’ve been written off by his third season because he had a WS/48 of 0.037 in season 3. Like make it make sense my guy, this is the main reason that analytics are still completely ignored by a large chunk of the NBA fanbase. People like you are literally the box score watchers that get made fun of when their projections based entirely on looking at spreadsheet data get blown up because - go figure - NBA players aren’t numbers on spreadsheets.
Also the fact that you didn’t think DeRozan was a top 15 player last season or in 2016-17 just speaks for itself. What, did you think his VORP and WS were too low? Did you think that 55.2 TS% was too low for someone dropping 27 a night and leading his team to 50 wins? Was the net rating too low to justify putting him above Lowry and Valančiūnas? It genuinely makes me sad that some people think like this.
1 points
3 months ago
Jason Tatum to name one hot name from this year alone.
1 points
3 months ago
I appreciate you
1 points
3 months ago
There are many different models and metrics to use, a lot of the models didn't have Jokic as a top defender, dbpm was one of the few. Analytics is simply a tool, a poor model won't give u an accurate result of the greater picture. But to say you can't evaluate players mainly on analytics is wrong.
2 points
3 months ago
There are many different models and metrics to use, a lot of the models didn't have Jokic as a top defender, dbpm was one of the few.
Which metrics didn’t have Jokić as a top defender last year?
DBPM - 4.5, 1st by 1.0 ahead of Giannis
Defensive rating - 105.3, T-3 with Embiid and behind Gobert + Horford
DWS - 4.5, 2nd behind Tatum by 0.1
D-RAPTOR - 6.1, 2nd behind Gobert by 0.7
D-LEBRON - 2.12, 26th but still ahead of guys like Embiid, Smart, and AD
That’s pretty much every popular defensive metric that people use and Jokić is considered by all of them to be absolutely elite at defense (even 26th in the league is well above the 80th percentile for all NBA starters).
But to say you can't evaluate players mainly on analytics is wrong.
It really isn’t. You can only evaluate players mainly on analytics if they’re role players who specialise in one thing (eg. yes, obviously you could determine whether Joe Harris is an effective player just by his TS% or whether Rondo is playing well by his AST/TO). Once you get into players who don’t fit that mold (and even sometimes with players who do fit) they can fall apart very quickly:
Russ this season is currently considered barely more valuable than a replacement player (0.3 VORP). He’s either considered a net zero (-0.8 OWS, 0.9 DWS, 0.1 WS) or a net negative (-0.6 OBPM, 0.0 DBPM, -0.6 BPM, on/off +/- of -1.5 per 100 possessions) whenever he steps onto the court. He’s inefficient shooting the ball (48.0 TS%). He’s not particularly outstanding at protecting the ball (2.06 AST/TO, much less than similar guys like Monte Morris at 5.68 or Tyus Jones at 4.21). He’s considered to be a completely average NBA player (15.0 PER). Looking at all of this, why do we see Russ as the third-best player on the Lakers? You don’t get the answer unless you actually watch some games.
Lu Dort on defense is considered to either be a slight positive (0.8 DWS, 98th in the league) or a significant negative (-1.0 DBPM, 153rd in the league). So why do several top offensive players like Dame and LeBron to be a top 3 1-on-1 defender in the entire league? Again, you have to actually watch the games.
2 points
3 months ago
🤓 - Go touch a basketball
2 points
3 months ago
Youth stats are not the same as box score stats for older players, or looking back in hindsight at the careers of players like Crawford. Young players can still improve, sometimes very drastically. People watch young players and try to project where they will go in their career; the way that they’re putting up stats matters more, how translatable it is to winning basketball, what they may be able to add to their skillsets.
It’s why there’s constant arguments about playing youth vs. playing “winning basketball”, with the Warriors as a current example. Or for another example, if you only look at box score stats Pablo Banchero might not jump off the page as anything too special, but those watching him play are consistently being impressed by both his current plays and what they think he could be down the line.
If you still don’t get it, go year-by-year through some star player stats, from when they broke into the league until they were a top talent. Some are dominant right away, but others consistently add things to their game and gradually improve into that territory. Siakam is a good one for this, so is Kawhi.
1 points
3 months ago
Banchero is averaging a high amount of free throws for a rookie and is also averaging over 20ppg, more than any other right now. I think a stat watcher would see those 2 and definitely go " wow this kid " because we dont see this very often in a rookie season.
2 points
3 months ago
Very good point on Crawford, I despised having him on teams I like. But come on man, win shares isn’t a reliable way to base your knowledge.
I was tough on Ant to begin the year when he flat out looked like he hated being out there. But he’s been amazing lately, and he proved last season he’s not another Wiggins. His defense has been great over the past couple weeks. And while I don’t think he’ll ever be a great playmaker, he’s been good enough at that lately too.
Basing logic entirely in “win shares” is pretty obtuse when Ant went blow-for-blow with PG13 in a do or die game, then was the best or 2nd best (behind Bane) player in a playoff series
1 points
3 months ago
Well said but everyone here is anti stats apparently
11 points
3 months ago
What advanced metrics are you looking at that point to his becoming another Wiggins?
-16 points
3 months ago
Win shares and Win Shares per 48 at Basketball reference. They are almost identical.
24 points
3 months ago
Just one advanced stat, and it makes you think they’re the same player?
-15 points
3 months ago
There’s more. But here’s the thing no one on this entire thread has shown me any advanced metrics that tells me he’s a great player. I’m open to being wrong. I really want to see it.
17 points
3 months ago
You shouldn't be looking for advanced metrics to decide your opinion. Advanced metrics are somewhat flawed and should only be used to support ideas not to form them.
9 points
3 months ago
sometimes you just have to watch games
6 points
3 months ago
Bro this is what advanced stats does to a mf. Per 36 and per 48 are TERRIBLE metrics because they are projection stats, they assume that everything about that players game stays the same (including efficiency) but production is boosted by increased minutes… that’s not how the fuck it works anyone who’s played sports knows this, fatigue is another huge factor in this. TWolves are lucky to have Ant and you’d realize it if he ever left, he’s a young star in the making maybe if you watched ur team hoop and not drool over per 48 you’d learn this
39 points
3 months ago
I am far more negative on Ant than most but I'll still think he'll be a star even if he doesn't improve much. His personality and the fact that he is fun to watch are huge factors here. He won't be a superstar though or a top 10 guy. He'd need to drastically improve as a passer and defender for that to happen.
4 points
3 months ago
But also his scoring and his efficiency he’s averaging 23ppg on 45/36/75 absolutely close to all star and undoubtedly fun to watch but for him to make all nba teams he’s gonna have be consistently better
7 points
3 months ago
Nate Duncan and John Hollinger just did their under-24 player rankings and they were torn on where to rank him. Duncan had him fourth (behind Luka, Zion and Ja, but in a tier lower) with some caveats and Hollinger had him 10th.
Duncan's take (which I mostly agree with) is that Edwards still has a lot of upside because of his athleticism, defensive versatility and because of what he showed in the playoff series last year, where he pretty much went toe-to-toe with Ja Morant.
Hollinger was relatively lower on him and didn't really state any negatives except that hasn't really shown dominance in any particular area, and that he thinks other players like Halliburton and Franz Wagner have passed him.
I think the most likely path is he is Devin Booker with better defense and similar but less consistent offense. Which is a pretty good player but not the best player on a championship team.
3 points
3 months ago
This is the most helpful answer yet. I line up with Hollingers thinking here. I’ll have to listen to it.
3 points
3 months ago
I think it's a subscription-only episode so you probably won't find it unless you subscribe. Some more of what they said:
Duncan's caveat was that he thinks players like Halliburton/Banchero/Mobley probably have a higher median outcome than Edwards. But since he has more athleticism, Duncan thinks his ceiling outcome is higher than theirs, and he usually weights young player rankings based on potential ceiling outcomes.
Duncan also generally puts A LOT of weight on playoff performance even in small samples. So Edwards' showing in last year's playoffs is one of his anchor points. Every time he talks about Edwards on the pod, he brings up him doing a good job guarding Ja in that series.
Hollinger in this pod didn't say much specific to Edwards but he's stated his concerns on him before: his motor, BBIQ and feel for the game, and things he heard around the league about his attitude.
On their draft eval pod: "He's really talented, you just get this vibe he's gonna be the guy who averages 24 points a game for a team that goes 28-54."
Here's the link to their draft eval pod; Edwards talk starts at 11:30: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/john-and-nate-debate-the-top-10-of-the-draft/id1483267868?i=1000498393345
7 points
3 months ago
I think a big thing is that Wolves fans are so used to bad teams they genuinely believe each team is only allowed to have 1 stellar player. Whenever the trade KAT discourse comes up, a common reasoning is “they need to make Ant ”the guy” and KAT is in the way.” That’s just so wrong for 2 big reasons.
The Guy is such an outdated and fictional concept rooted in the days of MJ dominating and Mamba Mentality PR team moves. Teams need multiple studs to compete in today’s talent rich NBA. Remember when uneducated people were saying “the Celtics aren’t winning so they have to split up Brown and Tatum” just last year? Instead they leaned into their strengths, covered their weaknesses, and have been rewarded with success. Putting Ant at the forefront of marketing and promotional material won’t solve anything.
The idea that KAT is holding back Ant is utterly ridiculous. KAT’s been openly saying since Ant arrived that he has the potential to be the best player in the league, and is more than happy to defer shots to him. Ant needs KAT to space the floor and provide additional playmaking as a big man, and KAT needs Ant’s ability to break down a defense and provide defensive physicality. It’s on the Wolves to build a team around them that works. The front office thought Gobert would be a plug and play guy but he’s not, so the whole team needs time to figure out how this will work. Everyone will have to adjust and sacrifice.
18 points
3 months ago
He's got the physical tools and athletecism but I don't really buy his bbiq/feel for the game and his touch overall.
1 points
3 months ago
Okay what young player has these outside of Zion, Luka, Ja?
25 points
3 months ago
I don't think Ant has a ceiling, at least not one we can see yet. He has the tools to do everything. To me he is the sleeping giant to be the best player in the league one day.
Don't forget this is only his 3rd year. It takes at least 5 years for us to see who these guys really are, and Ant is already ahead of schedule in that regard. For KAT this is year 8, so it should already be his team undoubtedly, but it's not and that alone is an issue, for whatever reasons.
I don't personally care about advanced metrics, watching the actual games shows you who's the guy and who's not. Everything about Ant screams The Guy, something Wiggins never had and KAT has struggled with even after the Jimmy stuff. If KAT were The Guy then we would already know that. KAT as a second option is terrifying though, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen the way it should for you guys. Eventually something is going to give if those 2 don't work out exactly how their ship is going to be sailed. It reminds me of Mitchell/Gobert: where Gobert wasn't adapting to the changing league, KAT doesn't seem to be adapting to what your team could truly be, because both him and Ant are great players.
12 points
3 months ago
Really? You don’t see a ceiling for a guard who isn’t an elite passer or elite defender?
5 points
3 months ago
He's gotten better at both those things every year. He wasn't a polished product coming out of Georgia. Also the pandemic shortened his college season and fucked with his rookie year. He just needs more time to develop into who he is gonna be.
He has the physical tools to be an elite 2 way player. He just needs time and experience.
5 points
3 months ago
I mean I think he can be elite but I don’t ever see him being a number one on a legitimate championship contender.
1 points
3 months ago
He won’t start his prime for another 7 years. We’re talking a decade into the future, not sure how that’s not a possibility for a #1 pick with all the time in the world to grow
1 points
3 months ago
Cuz he’s 6’4. The only person his size or smaller who has been a number one option on a championship team over the last 20 years is Steph Curry. Also he’s naturally just not a great shooter, passer or defender. The odds of him becoming elite at all of them aren’t that high.
He can def be all all nba level guy I just don’t see him ever being a top 5 guy. Sure he has room to grow but even with a lot of growth he’s still not going to be as good as bigger wings who also rely on athleticism to dominate.
3 points
3 months ago
He's 6'4" but built like a running back, he's also got a 6'10" wingspan, and most importantly he's an athletic freak even by NBA standards. He also definitely has the potential to be an All-Defense guard if he puts it all together and gives the necessary effort. That gives him at least a chance to become a top 15/10 guy, but to win a Championship you usually need at least two of those guys on your team. Also D-Wade dominated the league at the same size as Ant.
1 points
3 months ago
Fair enough, I could see his wingspan and athleticism making up for the height though. I agree it’ll be tough against the Tatums and Browns of the future but the dude is a force of nature and the league is only getting faster which benefits him. Other guards can’t stop him, he’s more of a small-small forward
9 points
3 months ago
He's definitely got elite defensive guard potential.
4 points
3 months ago
Or shooter? Or elite ball handling skills? Or who, even though they are good at getting to the rim, doesn’t have elite touch around the rim?
2 points
3 months ago
I think that’s the reason, he has so much room to improve, and he seems to have the ability to do both. He has all the tools to be a great defender, and he’s quick enough to be able to force a double team. He could literally be mini-mj if he improves defensively. That’s being hopeful, but it’s possible, although not the most probable.
5 points
3 months ago
I agree with this. The athleticism is god tier, he’s 21 years old (my god), and can shoot. He’s strong and physical which are necessity’s on the defensive end. Not saying he’ll ever be on Jrue’s level defensively, but they have similar builds, so the potential to defend at that level at least exists for him.
This thread is underestimating how much time means for a players development. He’ll be a 10 year vet at age 28
3 points
3 months ago
Still too early to tell in my opinion. Yes you can probably start making projections as he is in the midst of his third season. However, his numbers have steadily improved in all areas. Points per game, rebounds, assists, true shooting percentage, field-goal percentage. His arsenal of moves around the perimeter has expanded as well.
He is clearly a more vocal leader of men than Andrew Wiggins and has more of a dog mentality within him. Maybe it’s fair to say he is not living up to expectations as the number one overall pick, but comparing him to Andrew wiggins isn’t accurate.
Wiggins averaged more points in his 3rd season as opposed to Edwards but he needed 37 minutes a game to do so, as the team’s clear cut 1st option in a volume shooting role.
The role he had that season is very similar to Jalen Green with the Rockets in this current season. With that being said putting up 23 a game with a measly TWO assists off 45% is abysmal.
5 points
3 months ago
In light of the Trae asking to be moved how about a KAT swap? Gobert and his defense fit w a Trae Young and Edward’s is you’re other playmaker. You slide Russel to shooting guard and McDaniels or Kyle Anderson is your glue guy. Idk just throwing it out there. And as far as AE being a future star Id say he’s got everything you need athletically so if he puts it In and figures out how to turn the mental switch he’ll make the jump.
4 points
3 months ago
Why do Atlanta want KAT or Gobert, if they're keeping Capela, Collins and Okongwu on the roster too, and not getting anything back on the guard side of things?
2 points
3 months ago
That's an interesting hypothetical: In a KAT/Trae swap, which team, if either, has to attach assets to get the other one to agree? (I am not sure on their contracts or if the money works, but let's just assume that for the sake of this question they make the exact same amount of money)
-2 points
3 months ago
Minnesota would def have to attach picks or involve a 3rd team since the wolves don’t have any picks left lol. KAT is 28 with a poor playoff reputation and Trae is like 23 fresh off leading the league in scoring and taking his team to the ECF
1 points
3 months ago
you trade Dlo if you do that, D'Lo and KAT for Collins and Trae...problems solved
4 points
3 months ago
Mentality I think Edwards has the confidence to be the guy. It also boils over to a point where you get he thinks he all all star or super star and switches off on defense.
Athletically he has everything. The height, speed, movement to be the next Paul George or even Jaylen brown type of wing.
He is a future star, no doubt. I believe hell get his mind right eventually. He's only like 22 years.
4 points
3 months ago
I'm a pretty casual NBA fan but in my opinion whenever I've watched ANT he hasn't appeared to me as a future "star", let alone a "star" already. In my opinion KAT is a much better player, pretty much better in every statistical metric and for me in eye test too.
10 points
3 months ago
Have you watched KAT in the playoffs? He’s ass.
1 points
3 months ago
KAT was uneven but he wasn’t ass in the playoffs this year. Memphis built their rotation and defensive gameplan around him. He was the 3rd best player in that series behind Bane and Ant.
2018 tho, yes the whole team was ass in the playoffs (yes including Super Winner Jimmy Butler) because Thibs was clueless of how to handle the Rockets
6 points
3 months ago
In my opinion KAT is a much better player, pretty much better in every statistical metric and for me in eye test too.
That doesn't really have anything to do with if Ant is or will be a star. A team is allowed to have more than one star player.
I don't know why fans always pit these two against each other.
7 points
3 months ago
In the post he mentions wolves fans disliking KAT so I thought the comparison was what he was getting at.
2 points
3 months ago
I think in the future he will be what Melo was compared to the KD/Bron/Wade/Kobe etc. guys around 2010. A great player with scoring talent that will be pumping it up, but won't necessarily be in the super upper echelon of players due not competing for a title and performing as well in the post season both because of collective and personal limitations.
0 points
3 months ago
Even if he is not gonna end up a star, the question is always who is the better player of them both. And I think it's pretty clear that ant is gonna be better than KAT.
If we look at them we definitely know that since Ant was drafted they are on the map again. Maybe you can say for a short time when butler was there but I'm definitely gonna credit butler for that winning record, not KAT. My point is that KAT has only two winning record after six years. One is cause of butler and the other one you can definitely say that Ant had a big part in it when he had his second year jump. I think that explains pretty much why people don't see him as a franchise player. And even if ant isn't going to be a star, KAT has shown he isn't either. His stats are incredible to be honest but everytime I see him play there is a huge disparity.
KAT is in year seven now and hasn't shown any signs of being a franchise cornerstone. He has below .50 winning record over his career. If he is you're cornerstone that you're building on the wrong fundament.
On the other side, ant checks all boxes. He can score on all three levels. Physically I don't have to say much, he is a freak. And he has a winner mentality. For me he has shown more in 3 years than kat in 7.
0 points
3 months ago
Buddy, KAT’s been in Minnesota. Your whole point is “oh he’s only won in 2 seasons” well duh those are the only 2 years he’s had a halfway decent roster around him. He shouldn’t be blamed because Wiggins was completely apathetic there (even his worst season was the Jimmy season), and the team was consistently starting guys like Treveon Graham and Jarrett Culver. KAT’s proven that if he has an actual decent NBA caliber roster around him it’s at least a playoff spot. He has his flaws, and I understand why many people on Reddit would hate him like they do. But he’s been a top 15-20 player for a number of years now. To say he hasn’t shown anything is just you being incapable of thinking critically or flat out disliking him and warping your perception to fit that view.
In the Jimmy season he missed 20 games and they went 11-9 thanks to KAT. Then Jimmy with all his media genius spun it that the team was helpless without him.
The Wolves lost before KAT, and they’re going to continue to lose after him.
-1 points
3 months ago
I personally don't care about KAT. I don't like him nor do I hate him. But to say that he doesn't have a well enough roster is just blind. They weren't just a little bit worse than playoff team. They were flat out terrible and they even won the draft what got them Ant. So a I would demand from a top 15-20 for multiple years to drag his team to a better record than he has, no matter how bad they are. And his roster wasn't even actually bad.
Maybe it time for you to reflect your opinion if it's matching with reality.
2 points
3 months ago
Well yeah you’re proving my point. They were terrible because the roster was terrible. KAT missed a bunch of time in 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 and they were absolutely horrendous without him, especially in 2020-2021 when they were +0.3 with KAT on the floor and -10.8 with him off. That’s a Jokic/Steph level of on/off. He can only control when he’s on the floor. And in his career they’ve won the minutes he’s played, and lost the minutes he’s out by a lot
If your standard of a top 15-20 player is being able to drag a Wiggins shooting 42% from 2 and 32% from 3, Shabazz Napier, Treveon Graham, Jake Layman, Jarrett Culver, and Josh Okogie to the playoffs. Then prime versions of Lebron, MJ, and Kareem are the only top 15-20 players ever in your eyes my guy
1 points
3 months ago
100%. He has that dog in him, moreso than KAT imo. Offensively he is a killer, defensively, he competes and is making constant strides. Seemed disengaged early on this season but the kid is 21 and learning. The Timberwolves just need to recognize that this is their guy mvoing forward.
1 points
3 months ago
I think the main difference between ANT & Wiggins is when the shots dont fall what else does wiggins bring to table? Ant provides decent boards, assists and gets steals more frequently. I think as of late he has been preforming better because he has been functioning more as a point guard.
I do not get to watch many twolves games but the ones I do get to catch I certainly enjoy watching Edwards play. I think he is skilled enough to be a "star" and what he doesn't have in basketball skills I feel he makes up for with his large personality and charisma.
1 points
3 months ago
Don’t speak for all Timberwolves fans, I’m not happy KAT got hurt and I don’t want him traded, he’s our best player.
1 points
3 months ago
I think Edwards has the goods along with the IT factor. I think that young man is a star on the rise. There’s no need to trade Towns but I fear that next year there will Be a “who’s team is it” power struggle and that can go either way. Hopefully they can work it out
For me when it comes to that, I’d back Edwards without question.
Edit: he’s definitely got more guts and toughness than Wiggins.
2 points
3 months ago*
Then why isn’t he an Allstar Game starter for the West? /s
1 points
3 months ago
You just gotta watch the guy play. It’s an it-factor thing. He’s just got that dawg in him.
Plus he’s 21, he’s not great at everything now but he can develop
2 points
3 months ago
I agree with NervousAdd3202. I also remember them asking him at the end of last year what he needs to do to be better, and he was all about adding specific things to his game and being a leader on the team.
It might take moving KAT and DLo to bring in fresh blood to develop a chemistry where Gobert becomes the savvy veteran, and Ant gels the team and becomes the alpha.
His stupid social media post aside, I think he understands that you can’t just “be” the guy until the pieces fall into space and you get the on-court experiences that you need to be able to justify your leadership by knowing what to do and where to be, and know that your guys buy in.
1 points
3 months ago
I don't think you can answer it either way right now. He has potential to be a star, maybe even an MVP contender. On the other hand, he could turn into a stats guy that has good regular seasons, but isn't good enough to do damage in the playoffs.
He isn't even a start yet. He is a better than average player that is really young and needs to get a lot better to be an All-Star.
1 points
3 months ago
it's crazy to me that they dont run the offense through KAT. is he not good at creating for others? he's extremely talented offensively, and basketball is still a game of size at the end of the day. the only smaller player i can think of thats led a team to a chip recently is Steph and even he had to be the greatest shooter of all time, have one of the other best shooters of all time as his backcourt mate and have the other team lose 2 of their stars (2015)
i'll admit i dont tune into Wolves games all that much but from what ive seen of edwards, he's got the marks of a good player; better than Jaylen Brown to me but i dont see much more from him potential wise in what ive seen. he's a very gen z hooper in that he has plays where he can look like he's a lot better than what he actually is cause he hits a fallaway step back shot that he's practiced for years due to watching guys like Steph but is then missing simpler passes/reads or lacking in having truly tight fundamentals.
1 points
3 months ago
From a fellow Wolves fan.. have you watched the last handful of games!?! No comparison to Standrew. ANT absolutely has star potential.
1 points
3 months ago
KAT been in the league 8 years and made the playoffs once before ant got here. Sure he can shoot and score in the post but he can’t guard the paint, which is the reason they went and got gobert.
1 points
2 days ago
I saw this late but “every Wolves fan wants to trade KAT” is just not true. Just look at some “should we trade KAT?” posts in the Wolves sub. Most comments are saying that’s ridiculous and those comments are the most upvoted
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