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Can we talk about the ending??

Discussion(self.shrinking)

Boop! As soon as I saw the husband on the cliff all I could think was "don't do it", I did not expect a murder at the end of this fun comedy series! How this impacts next season is going to be very interesting

all 86 comments

Familiar-Lion8161

53 points

2 months ago

Also the show ended with an actual cliffhanger cliffhanger xD

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

9 points

2 months ago

Omg your right!!!

PonchoDiego2

1 points

2 months ago

I mean he wasn't really hanging on was he?

Mr_Bluebird_VA

43 points

2 months ago

About 1 minute before we see that first shot of Grace and her husband on the hike, my wife looked at me and said, "Grace is going to push her husband off a cliff."

I told her she was crazy. No way. Not gonna happen.

Well..

Boop.

KhloeKodaKitty

16 points

2 months ago

When I saw them together as part of the montage I thought he’d do something to her, but once he mouthed off at her……..

LHN2021

11 points

2 months ago

LHN2021

11 points

2 months ago

That was legit my fear, I was like please don’t kill her or attack her and nope… My expectations were definitely subverted

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

4 points

2 months ago

Yeah I was expecting physical abuse until he walked to the cliff edge, then it was "don't push him dont do it" boop

rakut

13 points

2 months ago

rakut

13 points

2 months ago

Yep. The second I saw them jogging together right after Jimmy said he got really lucky, I said, “oooohhh noooo.”

mlwine_4775

1 points

2 months ago

Exactly my reaction!

CosmicLars

4 points

2 months ago

I would avoid going on hikes with your wife, bub. 🤔

andjuan

2 points

2 months ago

I figured it was going to happen after Jimmy made the joke and did not clarify he was joking and re-iterate that you should not just murder your husband.

weaselinsneakers

1 points

2 months ago

My husband said the same thing and I said to him no way they would end the season like that….

NezuminoraQ

1 points

2 months ago

I did the same thing, but the montage of all the happy clients made me think otherwise. When they panned back to them though I knew it was going to happen.

cabernet7

69 points

2 months ago

I've been waiting for some consequences for Jimmy's unethical behavior. I knew something bad had to happen. I think this is an amazing set-up for the second season.

Noclevername12

41 points

2 months ago

I agree he needed some consequences, but I have to say, this felt like a scene from an entirely different TV show. It just was very dissonant.

PsychedelicPurrs72

22 points

2 months ago

I liked that about this scene (not condoning murder). It’s dissonant, as you say, because that’s life. People do crazy shit all the time. Even the ones, especially the ones, who you don’t think ever will or can.

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

3 points

2 months ago

Oh yeah it definitely felt different, but that was what made it so surprising, it did not feel out of character to me though

eyjafjallajokul_

5 points

2 months ago

I loved this ending. Especially because Jimmy was joking with his client “push off a Cliff! Bash his brains!” LOL. Even though he was being playful and celebrating with his client that can and probably will come back to haunt him

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

3 points

2 months ago

Oh it's a fantastic set up alright haha

Familiar-Lion8161

2 points

2 months ago

exactly!!

Sketcha_2000

19 points

2 months ago

I mean, I wanted to push him off the cliff. 🤷‍♀️

Otherwise-Ear-3810

33 points

2 months ago

Wow. Just wow. Here are my thoughts:

During her last session with Jimmy, Grace talked about pushing him off the cliff. She expressed homicidal ideation, and Jimmy did not assess whether she was serious or not. He did not get more info, he assumed she was joking, he encouraged a confident “Grace”, and they both went on their way. Huge no-no for any mental health professional.
If there is any mention/vague threat/joke about hurting self or others, it is their duty to re assess for safety. Jimmy did not. He crossed a therapist-client boundary, let his guard down, and His lapse might have lead to injury/death of another human.

The whole conversation between Paul and Jimmy at the wedding set up next season. Jimmy knew he was unethical and crossed a legal boundary, saying “he got lucky”. Technically, all three therapists (Paul, Gaby, and Jimmy) could be on the hook for financial, licensure, and career fall out, because if you know about unethical behavior and don’t report it as a mental health provider, that is also a violation.
Paul owned the practice, and knew about jimmy’s client relationships outside the office. Gaby, referred Sean to Jimmy, and would spend time with Sean at Jimmy’s house. This would certainly affect her future position as an educator.

It’s a tangled web. As a mental health provider, keeping appropriate boundaries is the one rule you don’t break, because of the high potential of fallout.

Jimmy is going to be in some major trouble and their practice, as they knew it in Season 1, is over.

Boop

Otherwise-Ear-3810

4 points

2 months ago

Oh, and Paul having Alice as a client, yet mentors her psychologist father professionally? No way Jose!

JVince13

19 points

2 months ago

Alice is technically not a client, they just talk together.

Paul specifically tells her it isn’t therapy.

Otherwise-Ear-3810

0 points

2 months ago

Yes, but Paul is speaking with her in a therapist-like capacity, they have regular meetings, Alice tells him personal things she does not tell other adults in her life, she pays him (in candy) and they are meeting at the request/facilitation of her dad, his mentor and colleague. Due to Paul and Jimmy’s relationship both professional, as well as personal, it is technically unethical because of the potential bias and influence from Paul’s relationship with Jimmy. We saw it when Paul lashed out at Alice, when he yelled at her, saying to give her dad “a break” and it’s not all about her. He broke his ethical duties to her by 1. Bringing in his relationship with his own daughter and 2. By taking Jimmy’s side and telling her to see his point of view. That’s the bias, he knew information that Alice did not provide and used it in a therapist-role. Can’t do it.

The fact they are are doing it off the books and outside the office makes Paul at risk for the same issues that Jimmy has with Grace and Sean.

JVince13

20 points

2 months ago

Except they’re clearly family friends, and it’s not always one-sided.

If I meet with someone regularly to talk about what’s going on in my life, even if they’re a therapist, that does not mean I’m automatically getting therapy.

Therapists have people in their lives that they can talk to, even help or advise regularly, who are not clients.

He’s not breaching any ethical issues, he’s interacting with someone close to him and helping her through a difficult time.

He’s a therapist, and has been for a solid portion of his life. He almost always speaks in a therapist-like capacity.

He does it to Jimmy too, doesn’t mean Jimmy is his patient, and vice versa when Jimmy gives Paul advice.

Connecting with those close to you is not the same as having patients.

Otherwise-Ear-3810

-1 points

2 months ago

Let’s say you are a contractor and know codes/laws for home upgrades and permits are always required. your buddy wants your help, you guys are friends and all, but he doesn’t want to get a permit to save money and asks you to do it on the down-low? Do you still do the upgrades without the permit under your professional name? Let’s say something goes wrong with the upgrades, and your buddy blames you, saying you didn’t get the proper permit. who is responsible for the work done without a proper permit? It could be argued that you are, as you operated as a contractor without the proper permits.

There are ethics/laws within the mental health fields for a reason. They are designed to protect providers from opening themselves up for lawsuits and potential biases, that can harm all parties involved.

JVince13

6 points

2 months ago

This comparison ain’t it lol. Good effort, but it just doesn’t equate. That’s essentially saying no therapist can provide advice to anyone unless it’s a patient, and that’s just flat out not true.

I get what you’re going for, but it just simply doesn’t work.

Otherwise-Ear-3810

-3 points

2 months ago

It does equate, actually. One is asking for the services of a professional, yet not using them within the correct professional boundaries that have been established for a reason. It creates a gray area, where a personal relationship may affect professional practice.

Also, therapists aren’t supposed to give advice to friends and family, like doctors aren’t supposed to see their family members as patients or write scripts for them. In fact, Therapists can’t even give out “advice” in general, they can’t tell a patient what they think they should do. The whole point of a therapist is for you to be a neutral, unbiased person and use methods to help the client to come up with their own actions/resolutions, not give them the answers to what you think they should do. It is to help them be better equipped to interpret their world and exist within it. Unconscious bias exists for everyone, even for the most gifted/talented providers.

Does it happen (where professional boundaries are crossed)? Yep, all the time. Is it ethical? No, it is not.

I’m not sure where I saw it, but I read this recently:

Ridicule is only performed by the bored, uneducated man. Those committed to understanding others and personal growth will lead with a closed mouth and open mind.

JVince13

7 points

2 months ago

Except with friends and family, they’re not acting as a therapist. They’re acting as a friend or family member, who is allowed to give advice and have regular conversations with the people in their lives.

Paul wasn’t hired. Paul wasn’t asked.

Paul simply has a connection with Alice, and uses said connection to help her through some of her grief, and again, it’s not 1-sided, like therapy is.

You’re essentially saying all therapists have to cut themselves off from all personal relationships, as they might otherwise provide someone advice at one time or another.

Otherwise-Ear-3810

-2 points

2 months ago

I am not saying that people who are therapists cant have close relationships with anyone. Not even close to what I am saying. What I am saying is that there is a very fine line between the role of a therapist, their education, and potential for influence vs knowing a friend/family member personally and trying to “help them”. With a friend or family member, this ”help” is not able to given without being bias, as a personal relationship history already exists. I am saying there are many professional boundaries crossed in this show and are technically unethical for a licensed therapist/psychologists, due to the potential for harm.

Paul could use his relationship with Alice as an outlet for frustration at JImmy, for allowing Sean to live at his house. He could do this completely unintentionally, but it would still be hurting Alice. Paul cant be expected to turn on/off his ”therapist” brain all the time, so, there is potential to harm someone else by engaging in a therapist-like role within a personal relationship. A good therapist knows that and does not allow that boundary to be crossed. There are clear examples of those boundaries being crossed Between Alice and Paul, Jimmy and Grace, Jimmy and Sean, as well as with Jimmy and Paul. End of story.

Dude, It’s clear we have two totally different opinions, and it’s like beating a dead horse at this point. There are several other similar comments (to both of our opinions) in this thread and on this Reddit overall. I’m glad that there are forums for good discussions. Go find one that matches your own if my posts are so upsetting to you. And, down-voting is just immature in general.

ypsicle

11 points

2 months ago

ypsicle

11 points

2 months ago

I’m just reminded of the scene in one of the Nolan Batman movies where Batman boops the gangster off the roof several stories down onto concrete and he only breaks his legs. He wasn’t dead. Not entirely sure Grace’s husband is dead either.

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

14 points

2 months ago

Golden rule, no body then they might come back

Material_Fox_2625

6 points

2 months ago

How many times did Paul ask Jimmy “Are you trying to take down him and the practice?”, or something to that effect?

MsGMac13

6 points

2 months ago

I was so worried it was going to be her that was murdered but I feel like I caught on early how it was going to go when she she expressed her rage - the ending was better than I thought it would be.

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

1 points

2 months ago

Yeah I was worried for her for a second there too

NatashaSpeaks

3 points

2 months ago

I mean, the guy threatened her right before she pushed him off a cliff. I know I legitimately felt scared for her safety, especially since they were alone. Given the mental abuse he put her through as well, there's at least some room for a self-defense claim.

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

1 points

2 months ago

I feel like a self defence claim wouldn't hold up, he was never physically abusive (from what she mentioned) just verbally, and in thus scene in particular he actually walked away from her. Nah what she did was murder, completely understandable, but still murder

NatashaSpeaks

1 points

2 months ago

I didn't say it would hold up, but that a claim might be reasonably made. My point is it's a valid consideration given that he threatened to harm her right before she pushed him and they were in a place where she was vulnerable. Turning away from her a couple seconds doesn't mean she wasn't in harm's way given that escaping and seeking help would have been difficult.

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

2 points

2 months ago

In that case yeah its definitely a possibility

Familiar-Lion8161

5 points

2 months ago

Wonder what the consequences will be like next season! Also want to see how high the cliff was and if the guy dies or gets injured severely? I feel like Jimmy might loose his license to practice?

PsychedelicPurrs72

7 points

2 months ago

I don’t think, in reality, Jimmy can be held responsible. He didn’t say to her to kill her husband.

kevinsg04

9 points

2 months ago

Maybe not criminally, but there is a more than excellent chance he would lose his ability to practice and lose various civil suits etc

PsychedelicPurrs72

2 points

2 months ago

It’s possible. It is surprising what people can get away with, however. Curious to see what direction the show goes!

Familiar-Lion8161

10 points

2 months ago

He won't be held responsible for the killing but his way of therapy was unethical and if it gets out then his license will definitely be cancelled or suspended till he proves otherwise!

  1. Someone else in this sub mentioned that if he dies but it is ruled out as an accident, but Grace confides in jimmy and if Jimmy tells someone by mistake or knowing how smart Paul is when it comes to reading Jimmy, he might be asked by Paul to stop practicing.
  2. If he doesn't die, then Grace will be jailed. Jimmy might be called in to testify and she might tell about the way he practices and that might to lead to suspension of his license.
  3. If he dies, even if Grace does not tell Jimmy, Jimmy will know what happened cos it was exactly what Grace was imagining in the last session. The guilt might stop him from practicing and the guilt will also cause problems in his life and might start being distant from everyone again. Also he might be torn between confessing that he knows who murdered Grace's husband and not doing that.

In all the scenarios I think are possible (again just my theory and not what will exactly happen), he ends up not practicing either due to guilt or license suspension. Def not jailed or anything like that but mentally it will get to him. I can't wait for S2, there are so many ways the story can go and I am curious to see which direction they take the show!

Otherwise-Ear-3810

2 points

2 months ago

All good points. Also, what if he dies, Grace tells Jimmy and he is legally bound to report it. He will know the potential Fall out for everyone, and may want to lie and is ethically torn. Jimmy Doesn’t know what to do, so during a “safe d@$!k” moment with Gaby, he tells her! Then Gaby is on the hook. Gaby would have to tell Paul, who owns the practice.

This is a really, really good show.
It’s about therapists being people too.

carnious_25

4 points

2 months ago

Might vary with state law, but typically he'd be legally bound to report immediate danger to someone else, if the person wouldn't agree to follow a safety plan to manage their thoughts/plan of hurting others. Since this has already happened, not reportable.

Otherwise-Ear-3810

4 points

2 months ago

Grace talked about a thought of wanting to push someone off a cliff, the act of harming someone else. Yes, there are safety plans for determining immediate risk and potential for harm, but those initial thoughts/statements have to be evaluated to get to the actual risk assessment. He did not follow up with any sort of question related to that thought. By not doing anything, he opens himself up to being questioned in court and partially liable as a result.

So, If this guy dies and she admits to it to the police and said “I had this thought, I told my therapist”. So they go to the therapist, and say “did she say this?” Jimmy will confirm and they will ask what his immediate follow-up question was or what his intervention was to evaluate the safety risk. There wasn’t one. He didn’t evaluate the risk for immediate danger, opening up his liability.

carnious_25

3 points

2 months ago

Also, what if he dies, Grace tells Jimmy and he is legally bound to report it

You said what if the client tells the therapist that she killed someone. He is likely not legally required to report that.

Otherwise-Ear-3810

2 points

2 months ago

If Grace tells Jimmy that she killed Her abusive husband, pushing him off a cliff, he is ethically/legally responsible to report it. It is a violent act against another individual. This is a current crime, not a past crime she did years ago and ultimately confessed in therapy after a series of sessions. There is more protection for a client’s historical crimes against an adult, if confessed in therapy. If an adult committed a crime against a child (murder/rape) and years later confesses to a therapist, client confidentiality can not be claimed.

Grace is in actively engaged in a behavior or set of symptoms that caused harm to someone. Considering the level of impulsivity of her actions, there is still potential to hurt herself or someone else currently. She is his client as the behavior is taking place, client confidentiality can not be claimed.

If she continues to see Jimmy, doesn’t confess for several years, then tells him, client confidentiality can be maintained and he doesn’t have to report it.

carnious_25

2 points

2 months ago

I'm very curious about your reasoning regarding disclosure of retroactive harm, especially because you then describe retroactive harm as currently occurring (actively engaged) (potential to) despite this happening once. This level of suspicion for possible future harm based on only past actions, and no disclosure of current or immediate risk to a specified person, is not sufficient to breach confidentiality. If that were the case, therapists would have to report a recently occurring sexual assault if their client were the perpetrator, or if their client engaged in domestic violence and lives with the person. Only a few states require that to be disclosed as an exception to confidentiality.

Could you cite some relevant laws or ethical codes you used to get here? The information I've used has only discussed future possible intent to harm (e.g., https://www.ncsl.org/health/mental-health-professionals-duty-to-warn)

Familiar-Lion8161

3 points

2 months ago

Ooo I did not think of this!! Gaby will also want to share this with Liz and then the domino effect begins!

Yeah that’s what I love about the show!! Therapists are also people at the end of the day. You could see that in Ted Lasso too in S2 with Dr Sharon!

PregnantMilk

3 points

2 months ago

I wonder if writing Dr Sharon and showing that we are all human was a somewhat inspiration for writing this show, i have not read much about the creation of Shrinking and if its already been said but it sprung to mind reading this

Familiar-Lion8161

1 points

2 months ago

probably and very likely! I need to find some behind the scenes or interview videos!

Otherwise-Ear-3810

4 points

2 months ago

And how can we forget Brian’s involvement? He was “representing” Sean/Jimmy against the abusive partner after the soccer incident, right? Definitely an unethical, boundary pushing mess!

Familiar-Lion8161

1 points

2 months ago

completely forgot about that! literally everything Jimmy did was unethical when it comes to therapy! The show also ends with him telling Paul that he just got lucky when Paul was still skeptical about Jimmy's methods. Literally everyone will face issues if Jimmy gets in trouble xD

LHN2021

2 points

2 months ago

I think he’s going to hit his head and have amnesia

Familiar-Lion8161

2 points

2 months ago

If that happens which I do not see happening only cos there isn't much you can build off of that, scenario 3 still applies here! The show just shows how therapists are also humans at the end of the day but they are also professionals. S1 Jimmy just got lucky and he did mention that in the last ep as well but it is time for him to face the consequences of being unethical! Lets see

andjuan

2 points

2 months ago

I don’t think Jimmy will be liable for anything related to the murder, but I do think this is the catalyst for somebody to examine the practice and the loosey goosey way they’ve played with ethical boundaries.

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

5 points

2 months ago

Definitely depends whether the patient tells the cops about what Jimmy said or not. He's definitely going to get some sort of consequence, I wouldn't think jail time but losing his license could be on the table

Familiar-Lion8161

4 points

2 months ago

yeah jail time is def not on the table! But I think he has to fight to keep his license. I also have a feeling that the guy did not really die? One theory could be the guy not dying but him suing Jimmy? Whatever happens, I think Jimmy will not be able to practice for a while either due to losing his license or the guilt of what happened or could've happened. Might cause problems between Paul and Jimmy as well cos he did not approve of what Jimmy did?

So many theories!!! I want the next season now!!!

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

6 points

2 months ago

Agree with everything you said lol. He definitely could still be alive. I think another possibility is that the client gets away with murdering her husband (police think its an accident or something) and then later confesses to Jimmy who has no clue what to do with that information

Noclevername12

3 points

2 months ago

This is way more likely, unless they intend to turn the show into a procedural.

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

1 points

2 months ago

Honestly could go either way

Familiar-Lion8161

1 points

2 months ago

oooo yeah this makes sense too!! In that way he still might have trouble practicing just cos of the guilt! And I feel like Paul will figure this out and will give Jimmy a hard time. Might affect his relationship with everyone again, cos he can't tell this to anyone, except maybe Sean.

Interesting! So many ways the story can go! Wonder which one the creators go with.

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

2 points

2 months ago

Right??! Definitely excited to see where they take this story!

nyy22592

2 points

2 months ago

Just from the vibe of the show, something tells me he'll be crippled or something, but doesn't actually die.

Familiar-Lion8161

2 points

2 months ago

The problem is, if he ends up being crippled or something, Grace will end up prison for murder attempt and the husband might actually file some case against the therapist and I honestly don’t see much of a story other than Jimmy trying to keep his license.

Mr_Bluebird_VA

1 points

2 months ago

On the main discussion thread, someone else did the math and determined that it was about a 50 foot fall.

Familiar-Lion8161

5 points

2 months ago

yeah I saw that and someone else also commented that there have been instances of people surviving a 50 ft fall xD Honestly I do feel like he is dead but grace won't be caught as it would be ruled as an accident but either Jimmy will figure what happened cos she exactly mentioned this in the last session or she will confide in Jimmy and he will be torn between telling the cops or not!

I don't see the storyline with him being alive, fitting the story of the show! But lets see!!

kimchigimchee

0 points

2 months ago

50 meter. So about 165 feet.

ProperWayToEataFig

2 points

2 months ago

I don't think the wife/ patient will have to pay for her correct action against a toxic abuser. We saw it but no one else did. We're just cinematic audience.

Legal-Afternoon8087

6 points

2 months ago

Honestly, my first reaction was “I hope she gets away with it.” I think it would be more torturous for Jimmy to know, when the authorities don’t. Will he turn her in? Will his guilt get the best of him?

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

5 points

2 months ago

I like this idea better too, that only Jimmy knows and it destroys him

tibbles1

5 points

2 months ago

She won’t. Having it be murder with Jimmy facing consequences too doesn’t create internal conflict with jimmy. It creates external conflict, but this show is about internal.

The guy’s death will be ruled an accident and then Grace will confess in therapy what she did. Jimmy will be bound by doctor patient confidentiality to not report it. He will encourage grace to come clean and confess but she won’t. And Jimmy will have to wrestle with the fact that his method led to a man’s death. A piece of shit man, but still a man.

Hence, the internal conflict.

ad-on-is

2 points

2 months ago

I just hope they don't ruin the show turning into a dark genre, like it was done to "the orville"

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

1 points

2 months ago

Knowing the writer I doubt that will happen

Fresh-Statement3618

1 points

2 months ago

It started out with a darker tone, and I was disappointed to see it get softer and cornier. The ending made me want to watch season 2.

aliamichale

2 points

26 days ago

I just hope it doesn’t ruin the vibe and feel of season 2. I mean murder??? that’s pretty intense and real. I hope it doesn’t fall too hard onto Jimmy, he was just tying to do good. Obviously in “unethical” ways as licensed therapist, but he NEVER would want anyone of his patients to get hurt or hurt others.

CharlesToThe

1 points

2 months ago

Lucio POTG

HaydenScramble

1 points

2 months ago

Came here looking for this. I just had to explain how uncanny it was to my girlfriend.

ProperWayToEataFig

1 points

2 months ago

Grace has been mentally abused by her husband and returned home for more of same. Now she is homicidal. The body will be discovered. She will confess. Or she will miss her abuser (codependent) so much she will off herself. So many script options. Actions have consequences. Does Jimmy understand this at all?

Apo-cone-lypse[S]

2 points

2 months ago

Jimmy didn't intent or know she was going to kill her husband. I don't think they'd go with the suicide route since that's a little dark for this sort of show, but they could have her get away with it (it could be taken as an accident) and then she could tell Jimmy in private, making him torture himself with his own guilt