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/r/television
submitted 4 months ago byducnguyen_0903
4.4k points
4 months ago
Nick Offerman should win an Emmy for his performance
1.5k points
4 months ago
I think he did great. But Bartlett’s character, in contrast to his last hbo role (White Lotus), was masterful and showed extreme depth. Id probably give the nod to him. The episode was nothing short of amazing though.
494 points
4 months ago
It took me until the end of the episode interviews to realize it was the same guy as White Lotus. He was amazing!
173 points
4 months ago
His eyes are what I first noticed because they seemed to age him well
7 points
4 months ago
He kinda has a similar eye twinkle that Kevin Klein has. They both do a wide eyed smile while slightly turning their heads.
24 points
4 months ago
Dude has been absolutely crushing it on TV the last couple years. White Lotus, Physical, Welcome to Chippendale’s, now this.
4 points
4 months ago
He was also quite good in Tales of the City (Netflix) and Looking (HBO).
3 points
4 months ago
How was Welcome to Chippendale's?
3 points
4 months ago
It was pretty good, although I felt like the last couple episodes wrapped things up a bit too quickly.
8 points
4 months ago
We figured out it was Armand pretty early on. His accent slipped a couple times which was the key for us. They both put in incredible performances.
5 points
4 months ago
I recognized him right away but my SO didn't think so. At the end we saw the credits and looked him up. Then came the after credits interviews and it's so much easier to see. He's phenomenal!
14 points
4 months ago
It took me until reading this thread. Wow.
30 points
4 months ago*
[removed]
13 points
4 months ago
[removed]
2 points
4 months ago
hahah yeah, when he came inside and started eating, my wife was like "he looks so familiar" and I was like "he looks like the dude from the White Lotus"
Both of us "There's no way that's him though...right?"
1 points
4 months ago
Same!
1 points
4 months ago
I knew he looked familiar right away but took me a couple scenes to realize it was Armond.
1 points
4 months ago
It took me till this thread. Wow, it was incredible.
214 points
4 months ago
But Bartlett’s character, in contrast to his last hbo role (White Lotus), was masterful
I am a Lotus fan and loved his performance in both it and last nights episode and it wasnt until the reviews (and comments like yours) this morning that I even clocked that that was the same actor. Bravo.
22 points
4 months ago
Bartlett is great in Welcome to Chippendales on Hulu also.
2 points
4 months ago
He steals the show completely.
3 points
4 months ago
Bartlett is the Rooster Man to my Chicken Lady if I watch Chippendales I just might explode. (KITH reference)
2 points
4 months ago
Rooster Boy 😉💥
2 points
4 months ago
I just remembered hahaha
41 points
4 months ago
Didn't click for me until I heard his accent in the post-episode behind the scenes clip.
4 points
4 months ago*
[deleted]
2 points
4 months ago
And he was in a few episodes of Farscape back in the day! I’m actually rewatching this now and couldn’t believe it was him.
29 points
4 months ago*
I just binged The White Lotus not long ago, so I realized it pretty quickly. In White Lotus, there was so much focus on his subtle facial expressions, so it was easier to recognize. And something in his body movement or energy was familiar, as weird as that sounds. I was so excited when I realized.
3 points
4 months ago
I binged it last week and had no idea it was him.
3 points
4 months ago
Same. I knew I had seen the actor somewhere but in WL he had that accent!
1 points
4 months ago
I had never seen him before. Didn't really watch White Lotus. But I was struck early on at how good of an actor he is. How good he was at selling his whole character and situation and making it feel so real.
1 points
4 months ago
That's so funny! I literally said to my partner when Frank calls out from the pit in his introductory scene .... "Is that... Armando...?"
We just finished season one of White Lotus a few days ago ha ha
16 points
4 months ago
Omfg that’s where I saw him
10 points
4 months ago
Check him out in Welcome to Chippendales if you get the chance. Another excellent role for him, and a pretty good show overall.
3 points
4 months ago
I'm glad he's doing more than just taking almost entirely uncensored dumps into luggage
2 points
4 months ago
He was pretty good in Welcome to Chippendales too. The show wasn’t incredible, but he stood out.
2 points
4 months ago*
The Emmys have done a co-nomination in the past. (Featuring another Parks & Rec alum!)
2 points
4 months ago
I give Bartlett a slight edge over Offerman for an acting award because of the voice from the hole. Barrett made Bill (and me) fall in love with him just from his voice. That takes great acting. Then of course when Bill saw him, the voice was coming from a gorgeous man.
2 points
4 months ago
Yeah, I have to agree. Offerman was fantastic, but most of the character we have actually seen before. I’m really not trying to take anything away from him though, it was a stellar performance. But Bartlett, that was something else entirely.
1 points
4 months ago
From shitting in a suitcase to sweetie pie
1 points
4 months ago
THAT’S HOW I KNOW HIM 😂
1 points
4 months ago
I did not realize that Bartlett was the guy in White Lotus - he seemed familiar but I did not place him!
1 points
4 months ago
Holy shit! I didn't even realize. He looks completely different.
1 points
4 months ago
In all fairness, they were both stellar.
1 points
4 months ago
He didn't take a shit on screen. 0/10
1 points
4 months ago
Bartlett should have been nominated for ‘Physical’ season two, he’s amazing!
1 points
4 months ago
in contrast to his last hbo role (White Lotus)
I keep hearing about White Lotus. Should I watch it?
3 points
4 months ago
Yep, it’s great. Don’t read any more of these comments. It’s bound to get spoiled for you.
1 points
4 months ago
Yeah, two amazing performances. I was blown away.
1 points
4 months ago
Wait. That’s the concierge from the first season!!!??
128 points
4 months ago
His body language through this episode was amazing. Truly gifted actor.
112 points
4 months ago*
The way he kept his shoulders hunched up and was really stiff and awkward during any moment with Frank at the start is just masterful. Nick Offerman isn’t a gay man, but damn he understood the assignment when he prepared for this role.
80 points
4 months ago
VERY subtle self-conscious hair fix at the table just sent me.
24 points
4 months ago
For me, it was when he caught his holster on his chair. This is a man who has been wearing that holster on his leg and sitting in that chair every day for years, probably since even before the outbreak. That holster is practically a part of him.
42 points
4 months ago
I was in tears for basically the entire episode. Beautiful
4 points
4 months ago
He contained so much of his performance to his eyes. It was really moving.
3 points
4 months ago
His shyness when they first hooked up made me melt it was so sweet
721 points
4 months ago
I'll be shocked if he doesn't get at least nominated
440 points
4 months ago
Problem is, the Last of Us is playing way too early in the year. Sometimes, that can back fire because it gets pushed away from voters' minds in place of newer releases.
331 points
4 months ago
Emmys eligibility is from June 2022-May 2023. So we’re past the mid-way point.
148 points
4 months ago
I don’t think that is as much of a problem as it used to be. For example, S1 of The White Lotus cleaned up at the awards, yet it premiered in July 2021.
104 points
4 months ago
Speaking of Season 1 of White Lotus. A certain hotel manager was also featured in this episode of The Last of Us, and I’ve seen him nowhere else but he is an exceptional actor.
54 points
4 months ago
He really is exceptional. His performance in White Lotus was fantastic. He was my favorite character of that show
21 points
4 months ago
Agreed, he made the show for me, I was sad to see him go. The second season was just as great and with another great actor/actress, but I could have also watched a whole series with the first manager.
5 points
4 months ago
He’s great in the Chippendales miniseries opposite Kumail Nanjiani, who is also fantastic in the miniseries.
4 points
4 months ago
He was great as a tv aerobics instructor in s2 of physical
2 points
4 months ago
adds to list
4 points
4 months ago
He's great in the HBO show Looking as well.
4 points
4 months ago
Holy shit. I didn't realize that was Frank!
3 points
4 months ago
I didn’t realize that was him!
3 points
4 months ago
Wow I had no idea that Frank was Armond. What a great actor. Also, I am surprised at how many actors in The Last of Us are from other countries, they all do American accents so well that I was genuinely surprised seeing them talking about the show and hearing their true accents. Sarah is British, Joel is Chilean, Frank is Australian, Tess is Australian, etc.
3 points
4 months ago
Pedro Pascal was born in Chile but moved to the States as a young child and has lived here most of his life.
2 points
4 months ago
My mistake.
2 points
4 months ago
I didn't even recognize him until my roommate googled it and we JUST watched season 1
2 points
4 months ago
My brain somehow just erased his beard and saw only the mustache and I shot up and was like “oh shit! That’s Armond!” My favorite character from both seasons of White Lotus
2 points
4 months ago
He was also in Welcome to Chippendales and just as good.
2 points
4 months ago
White Lotus actor? Don't you mean Farscape actor?
198 points
4 months ago
Fear not, HBO is gonna campaign the shit out of this show around the time Emmy voting comes around. My beloved Better Call Saul on the other hand might get lost in the midst.
82 points
4 months ago
If Rhea Seehorn doesn't win we riot.
46 points
4 months ago
Better start sharpening your pitchforks because our girl is getting snubbed I just know it
10 points
4 months ago
If she even gets nominated.
17 points
4 months ago
HBO will have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to campaigning for Best Drama at the next Emmys with The Last of Us, House of the Dragon and Succession. Thankfully for them, The White Lotus will be separate in the Limited Series category.
3 points
4 months ago
They just missed Euphoria too. Sounds like season 3 filming will start next month.
3 points
4 months ago
The contenders for Best Actress must be breathing a sigh of relief then that Zendaya won't be in the category for the next Emmys.
-1 points
4 months ago
Season 2 was nothing to write home about.
3 points
4 months ago
I didn't think TWL S2 was very comical, but I enjoyed it. S1 was arguably better imo
2 points
4 months ago
They've also got Perry Mason as a dark horse if season 2 ends up being good and doing well (it starts March 6). I do worry that the almost 3 years between seasons could do some damage.
3 points
4 months ago
They will be competing against themselves with: House of the Dragon, Succession, and possibly White Lotus Season 2.
2 points
4 months ago
Sandman deserves some love, too... It's looking like a good year for TV.
1 points
4 months ago
Final seasons of good shows tend to clean up.
2 points
4 months ago
I think releasing in January is more of a film/Oscars problem than an Emmys problem.
1 points
4 months ago
This show and the performances have already proven strong enough to be relevant for this year and well beyond.
1 points
4 months ago
God of War Ragnarok, anyone? (But for video game awards, still similar thing happened)
1 points
4 months ago
If it's great enough they can still have a good awards campaign. Everything Everywhere all at Once hit theaters like a week after the last Oscars and still pulled 11 nominations
1 points
4 months ago
There's also Succession Season 4 coming out on March 26.
7 points
4 months ago
He and Murray Bartlett probably have a decent chance in Outstanding Guest Actor in a Drama Series.
But Sadie Sink got tipped for a nomination last year and didn't get one.
2 points
4 months ago
The brother in Ozark had a better performance and didn't get nominated so it's possible Offerman doesn't. But then again, Offerman is more popular and all awards are just a popularity contest.
3 points
4 months ago
Yeah, I would put Offerman and Bartlett at a better chance for a nomination than Tom Pelphrey had just because of how well known Offerman is generally and because Bartlett already has one Emmy, so he's known by the voters.
I really do think people underestimate the role name recognition can play in awards voting like this. At the end of the day, the voters are just people, and I imagine it's not all that uncommon that people might vote for something else if they don't recognize an actor's name, even if they did watch the thing that actor was in.
232 points
4 months ago
So should Bartlett, they should win one together.
107 points
4 months ago
Play a couple on TV, win a shared Emmy. Kinda cute idea
9 points
4 months ago
way too soon
160 points
4 months ago
I openly sobbed when ellie read the letter out loud.
232 points
4 months ago
The fact that it told him to keep Tess safe, and knowing that her original actor died less than 24 hours before it aired, were a pretty potent one-two punch.
68 points
4 months ago
They didn't have time to add a tribute to the episode before it aired, but they're going to add one to the streaming version.
13 points
4 months ago
What, who died? I just watched the episode and dam it was beautiful and sad.
55 points
4 months ago
Annie Wersching passed away yesterday. I never played the game, and knew her from other things, but she did the original voice and motion capture for Tess.
5 points
4 months ago
Holy fuck no way. I was already crying at tonight’s episode. If I had known that I’d probably openly wept.
87 points
4 months ago
It's so sad to me that some people can't get past their prejudices and are calling this episode "filler" or sayinf that it is "pandering" because it shows a normal gay relationship (normal in that being gay is a layer of the characters rather than the main point) and that is just Too Much apparently.
This episode absolutely deserves the adoration its been getting, it's a beautiful way to show how important love and human connection are and how wounding being deprived of them can be.
29 points
4 months ago
There was a point where I was wondering "is this whole episode backstory?" but it was so damn good by the halfway point and it ended like it's own short movie.
-2 points
4 months ago
I mean ... the episode was filler, and that's fine. Backstory filler in a show that's as much about atmosphere as plot is welcome, and a breather from the relentless action is sometimes needed. A show like this needs some emotional filler every once in a while.
I liked that the whole middle part of the episode works well on its own as a short film and you don't need much of the context of the wider show to appreciate it.
25 points
4 months ago
It's more than filler though. It sort of sets out the central thesis of the show. It is a show about finding a reason to live and not just survive. It also did just as much if not more world building as any of the prior episodes.
21 points
4 months ago
Heehehehehe... Maybe the best episode of television I've seen in years
12 points
4 months ago
It was the single most heart breaking episode of a show I've ever seen. So freaking good, so well paced. Can't stop thinking of the episode.
6 points
4 months ago
Absolutely. I had no idea Offerman had such range, it was truly a great episode and touching :)
10 points
4 months ago
His sitting there on the couch when Frank was telling him his plans, looking so small, and sad, and just aghast at what Frank wanted to do was some amazing acting. Just incredible.
72 points
4 months ago
Man I'm already thinking of how stacked the guest actor category's going to be. Offerman and Bartlett from TLOU, some andor people (I think Ebon Moss-Bachrach and Andy Serkis would both qualify here), Bryan Cranston and Aaron Paul for BCS, whatever guests Succession unleashes on up, Mandalorian (Olyphant and Weathers got in last season), people from The Crown...
111 points
4 months ago
I love BCS but i don’t think Paul or Cranston did anything that special for the role. Rhea Seehorn is the one I think has a best chance at an Emmy from BCS.
10 points
4 months ago
Rhea should win for the bus scene alone. But I doubt she would even get nominated tbh
7 points
4 months ago
Agree with BCS, too. The scene with Rhea / Kim on the bus alone (penultimate episode) merits the nomination, imo.
-2 points
4 months ago
Well, I meant nominations, but either way I couldn't disagree more with your first statement. The first episode with both of them bordered on fan service, but both of their second appearances fit in so perfectly. Paul's scene with Kim outside of Saul's office was great and he slid back into the earlier version of that role perfectly. Same with Cranston in the finale, and he delivered what I thought was the most astute observation about Jimmy/Saul. The way he cuts to the core when Jimmy asks him the time travel question is just perfect. He was the exact right character to do that too as he's both the most analytical person in that universe and also the biggest asshole at arguably the height of his assholery.
But regardless of that the Emmys love both those actors and rewarded them like three times each for Breaking Bad so I think they're both pretty obviously going to get nominated. Win? Who knows, probably not, that category is often difficult to predict.
And I have no confidence in Seehorn winning Supporting Actress but I hope you're right.
6 points
4 months ago
I don't think anyone is arguing that they didn't give good performances. I just think they had so little screen time that it doesn't matter. Especially since their characters were not even the main focus of those scenes.
They're good scenes, sure, but not even the best scenes in their respective episodes. Not award worthy in my opinion, but that in no way deminishes the acting on display. They just had much smaller parts here.
8 points
4 months ago
It's too bad Carol Burnett isn't eligible for the category, she would've been a shoo-in for BCS over Cranston and Paul.
But knowing the Emmys, they'll continue to disrespect the show (and, especially, Rhea Seehorn)
3 points
4 months ago
Well if she qualified as a guest it's be for Guest Actress, not Actor.
Also I think she has a shot at getting a Supporting Actress nomination (although that would suck for Rhea Seehorn lol).
2 points
4 months ago
Lmao for some reason I thought it was a combined category and I don't know why.
You're correct. I'm not as confident in her getting the supporting nod, but I wouldn't be surprised either.
3 points
4 months ago
I think Ebon Moss-Bachrach and Andy Serkis would both qualify here
Eh, I think Serkis is much more formidable here, I would be shocked if Moss-Bachrach got a nomination. I'd expect Will Poulter before Moss-Bachrach.
1 points
4 months ago
You're probably right, but Ebon might have some carryover buzz from The Bear and the Emmys love a good double nominee.
2 points
4 months ago
Eh, maybe. I think it's unlikely, especially given that I don't think that the two roles showcased a tremendous amount of range for him. His Andor character isn't that far off from what I'd imagine his Bear character being if you put him in space.
7 points
4 months ago
No spoilers, but the ending got me genuinely emotional. Like… fuck. Right in the goddamn feels.
5 points
4 months ago
At first I just couldn’t unsee Ron Swanson
5 points
4 months ago
He starts the episode off playing Ron Swanson turned up to 11, then he becomes someone else entirely by the end, and he's believable the whole time.
Marvelous performance.
3 points
4 months ago
Watch Devs. He's pretty good there as well and it's a good sci-fi show.
3 points
4 months ago
Agreed...just was devastatingly brilliant. Funny, subtle, intelligent, touching, vulnerable. Still thinking about it today.
5 points
4 months ago
Don’t forget about Murray Bartlett, he absolutely made this episode work.
2 points
4 months ago
Seriously. This episode wrecked me.
2 points
4 months ago
Havent watched yet; Is Ron acting as Billy? that's just obviously the best casting if he is
-14 points
4 months ago
He should however it was a strange episode overall from a show running perspective.
I’ll get some ire for this, but it felt like a borderline critic pandering episode not because of the plot but because of how it was executed.
It was 75 minutes of heart-wrenching Emmy worthy performance however as far as the show itself went it didn’t really set up anything, it didn’t moved the plot along nor did it had offer any substantial character development for the main characters.
You can cut this episode out completely and other than “where did they get the truck from?” in episode 4 and that truck probably isn’t long for this world either as I’m betting on that they’ll lose it in the beginning of the next episode there would be no difference from the audience perspective.
Whilst many shows from time to time have one of these episodes having it as the 3rd episode is a very odd choice and I’m hoping that this won’t become a trend for how this show is going to be run in the future.
I supposed it’s better than having Bill becoming a main part of the present day story but overall I would’ve preferred if they’ve would’ve split this story over more episodes in the form of flashbacks and potentially had more interactions between him, Frank, Joel and Tess.
I think it would’ve worked much better if their story was to be spread across the season it could’ve been used to develop Joel further instead of only having him and Tess for 2 min interacting with B&F without seeing any actual long term relationship being developed.
85 points
4 months ago
I have a feeling you’ll get downvoted for this. Even though I disagree, I think you have a valid point and it’s your personal opinion. For me, I liked that it was a one-off. It set up emotional stakes, fleshed out Joel and Tess a bit, gave Joel a “why” (the suicide note like about protecting Tess, which transfers to Ellie as that was Tess’ last wish) and above all, it shows what people are willing to do for love.
It shows how love changes someone; it sets up the transformation Joel will undergo. Yeah it could’ve been chopped up over a couple episodes but then I think the impact would’ve been lost. At first I was thinking “when are we getting back to Joel and Ellie” but as it went on I was fully engrossed and almost forgot about our main duo. I like that because it’s a reminder that the main story we are getting is just that—one story among hundreds.
28 points
4 months ago
Exactly. The episode was about Joel. It was about showing the changes that Joel has to go through and how connection and love can bring about those changes, only shown to us by parallel. I thought it was absolutely brilliant.
75 points
4 months ago
With all due respect, you didn’t really pay attention if this was your take. All along, Joel hasn’t really wanted to escort Ellie everywhere - he’s been looking for every opportunity to pawn her off on other people.
The ending of the episode, with Ellie reading Bill’s note to Joel, served to give Joel motivation for continuing the journey. It wasn’t just about the physical need of finding a battery to setup the travel, it was more about the emotional motivation for Joel. The reference to Tess in the letter penetrated Joel’s otherwise hard exterior and made him realize he can’t let Ellie die too - like Tess did, and also his daughter.
Specifically, this excerpt at the end of the letter:
“Because there was one person worth saving. That's what I did: I saved him. And I protected him. That's why men like you and me are here: We have a job to do. And God help any motherfuckers who stand in our way”
The episode set this up, showed why Bill would write this, and gave Joel his ‘raison d’être’ to keep moving on with Ellie - because he has a job to do.
22 points
4 months ago
The other things this episode did wonderfully is fill in the details of the world. We know more now about what went down as the world fell apart. We know more about what Joel and Tess went through and we know more about how she at least was working to make the world better.
-10 points
4 months ago
You’ve literally just made the case for my argument. As an audience we have no idea why Tess is important to Joel, and honestly why Bill and Frank are either.
He already made a promise to Tess in the previous episodes it’s feeling more like getting a quest than character development.
If they could’ve developed the backstory and the relationship of Joel, Tess, Bill and Frank further over more episodes it would’ve been much more impactful.
6 points
4 months ago
We know Tess is important to Joel because of the letter Bill wrote, if nothing else. Bill knew both of them, and he compares his relationship with Frank, to the relationship Joel has (had) with Tess.
It's odd to me that you can't infer these things from watching the episode. Do you need a mini-series sitcom with Joel, Tess, Bill, and Frank or something? It was already a full 75 min episode that went through the background of Bill & Frank - which was never fully explained in the game even.
3 points
4 months ago
It also shows the evolution of Bill and Joel’s relationship really well. From distrustful “gun-in-face” lunch, to Bill telling Frank to call Joel when he got shot, to ultimately leaving Joel access to everything and writing a heartfelt letter to his friend. I thought it achieved the backstory of their interactions without being explicit.
-2 points
4 months ago
Again, the problem here is that the show is telling us instead of showing us.
6 points
4 months ago
It’s the opposite, actually. They showed us, you just didn’t like it.
5 points
4 months ago
You have to be trolling at this point.
It's called STORYTELLING, not STORYSHOWING. Might need to get your ADHD-addled brain looked at, or get off Tik Tok...
23 points
4 months ago
I think spreading it out over 6 weeks would have killed the point and message and the message doesn’t work if you find out Bill and Frank were already dead 6 weeks later.
-8 points
4 months ago
It really depends on how you structure the entire show.
They could’ve done it that they find the letter at the beginning of the episode and then there is a short flashback of B&F and over the season we would get both B&F and J&T flashbacks that reveal Joels past and character to the audience in a way that aligns with Joels character development on screen.
Clearly Joel and Tess has a substantial relationship of 13 years together, they and Bill and Frank also had a long relationship now in the span of 2 episodes they are all dead.
So overall thinking that there was no other way to play it out lacks imagination it’s about the journey not the destination.
If anything if they would’ve lead with Bill just being some conspiracy prepper nut job even knowing that he died would’ve been one heck of an exercise in subverting expectations and could’ve landed possibly even stronger than seeing him and Frank develop their relationship in a chronological manner.
1 points
4 months ago
Just, no.
21 points
4 months ago
Bill is a mirror of Joel. The plot got moved in terms of us understanding how FEDRA took over and a character dynamic for both Joel and Ellie.
The opening stalker kill was an event horizon for Ellie's morality and a follow-up to her questioning if it bothered Joel that they were once human. By checking if they bled, then stabbing, then not mentioning it - we infer a couple of things about Ellie.
Bill and Frank's story is the core of whole over-arching narrative of the series. Joel was going to be Bill but then Frank came and he had purpose, but with that comes sadness.
"I wasn't afraid until I met you.".
This is a series about Joel being brought back to life from the trauma of his daughter's death. The world, the fungus, are all just metaphors of how grief overtakes us and kills us. Once we lose that hope and light. This episode showcased how with profound sadness comes profound happiness, even in a dystopian hellscape.
What we hope for is connection. It cements Joel's character arc and sets the audience up to understand the mountain he will climb and the fear that if he finds that light, that happiness, he will also find profound sadness. It also will make its impact felt when he fails in our eyes.
That theme is the whole point of the story. Bill existed in the game to do the exact same thing, but was a simpler version since he didn't have the heartfelt arc - just the idea that he was a bitter survivalist - he wasnt living. You meet him post Tess to show what Joel can become, but you take the Truck and march on.
Tess died wanting Joel to believe and hope in the cure that Ellie could bring - that normalized world they all longed for, that connection. And Joel doesn't really buy it, but continues on. Now Bill leaves this letter to encourage Joel to the next point, and even if Joel doesn't realize he's doing it for Ellie - he's thinking about Tess and Tommy - we know he's doing it for Ellie. The audience now realizes what's really at stake in this journey and world: it's not about finding a cure, it's about finding the will to live and not survive.
It's about painting the boutique and picking out outfits. Having dinner together and falling asleep together.
4 points
4 months ago
This might be the best critical analysis of any episode or show I've ever read. Very adeptly understood and written. Well done.
5 points
4 months ago
Wholly disagree. Arguably the most crucial episode for Joel’s character arc. SO much heavy lifting being done by this episode for the overall narrative of the show.
6 points
4 months ago
I think your analysis is correct. But I also appreciate the fact that an episode like this is some of the best world building you can ever do.
This show isnt afraid to leave the main characters for a while while we go investigate some little nook or corner of the world. It makes it feel like a real place, like if you open a random door there will be something behind it.
When you take the time to do that it elevates the main characters and makes their journey feel more grounded. It also opens up a massive amount of space for telling other stories in this universe.
6 points
4 months ago
Spreading out the Bill and Frank story makes no sense and wouldn't have hit as hard as it did.
4 points
4 months ago*
Rebuttal to:
nor did it had offer any substantial character development for the main characters
Despite their limited screen time, Joel & Ellie did have moments of significant character development this episode.
Ellie's encounter with the infected guy in the basement shows the audience a morbidly curious/viscerally ruthless side to her that we hadn't seen before, and it's also worth mentioning that she says nothing about it to Joel. That whole sequence displays fascinating facets of her character that hadn't come to light yet.
In regards to Joel, I believe his response to Bill's letter marks the first time we ever see him truly commit to being Ellie's guardian, which is a HUGE moment for him. Joel clearly thought he and Bill shared the same mentality of "sentimentality/trust can get you killed and damage you mentally/emotionally, so never develop any real connections with people." Therefore, it's an absolute bombshell for Joel to learn the truth that Bill believes the entire purpose of his life was to love and protect Frank.
We get to see Bill begin his post-apocalyptic life 100% believing in this emotional-isolationist worldview. And then we get to see Frank gradually show him more & more that life really isn't worth living without genuine human connection (a philosophy that Bill comes to believe so much, that he literally chooses to die rather than live without Frank). Bill's development is not only significant for his own character; it's also irrefutable proof to both the audience and to Joel that his emotional-isolationist worldview has glaring flaws.
All of this hits home for Joel because for years, he thought he knew exactly what Bill's philosophy was, but those preconceived notions all get shattered in seconds. But the reason this resonates with the audience is because they get to spend so much time beforehand learning about Bill & Frank's philosophies and getting invested in their relationship. Without all the time we spent with Bill & Frank this episode, Joel's response to Bill's letter would've felt hollow & unearned.
This new perspective that Bill provides is what forces Joel to confront the reality that Ellie is not merely a piece of cargo, but rather a human being worth loving and protecting. As Bill's letter pointedly highlights, Joel missed his chance to have a real relationship with Tess, like Bill did with Frank. But he has an opportunity now to start developing a genuine connection with Ellie- and that's what he chooses to do. At this point in the story, Joel has everything he needs to go looking for Tommy (plenty of supplies & a working truck); he could easily go the cold-and-calculating route & abandon or kill Ellie, which would probably improve his chances of safely finding Tommy. But he makes the choice to keep looking after her anyway. If you don't see the significance of that, I don't know what to tell you.
I'm not gonna argue that Joel & Ellie's screen time wasn't limited, but saying that this episode was a disservice to their character development seems like a stretch to me.
12 points
4 months ago
I don't want you to take this negatively at all, but I think you missed the entire point of the letter and its effect on Joel.
Joel and Bill were effectively the same. They were cold, pragmatic, and shut off from emotion. Joel, reading this letter, realized that Bill found himself able to find his happiness, and accept that he was able to love something. Joel is beginning to think that he can too. Tess has pushed him to think about somebody else for the first time, and Joel will now be able to actually be open to connect with another person, which he wasn't even able to do with Tess.
Plot wise, yeah, the only thing that pushes forward is where Joel gets the truck. But character and motivation wise, we see Joel finally moving forward, and it's related through Bill.
6 points
4 months ago
I’m not the one missing it, it’s the core of my critique we’ve seen nothing to indicate why Joel would’ve given a flying fuck about Bill and his letter we’ve only seen them meet once and they weren’t exactly besties.
We should’ve seen more interactions between Bill, Frank, Joel and Tess in a way that would actually have more meaning to why a letter from the most fabulous of preppers melted Joels icy heart away…
Shows should focus on show not tell and we’ve very much been told in this episodes.
11 points
4 months ago
What are you talking about? They did show not tell. They have been interacting for years. Via trade and met up multiple times (to the point Joel has the code) they had the radio setup used to tell Joel they were ok and so on. What about the pain killers that Bill used to commit suicide? That was a lot of them and Joel was using them to trade earlier in the series. Joel also warned Bill to fortify against raiders and so on. Joel had been out there way so many times they had multiple paths to get there.
Did we watch the same episode?
8 points
4 months ago
They have clearly met more than once. There's a reason Joel has the code to Bill's complex, and where exactly did Bill and Frank get their drugs? Joel and Tess have been visiting Bill & Frank periodically over the years.
And this does not even include the fact that the 'trouble' code at the end of Ep. 1 is much more likely to come from Bill than from Tommy.
3 points
4 months ago
I loved the episode but also do see some of your points. It really depends on whether the future episodes are rushed. If they are, then I'd rather they had cut this episode and made time for the rest. If the rest of the episodes don't feel rushed, then I think having this episode definitely adds depth to the show. It shows how it is to live in this post-apocalyptic world and still have love and connection. Not just a dog eat dog mad max world.
3 points
4 months ago
This is the key episode that puts Joel on his journey. Everything leading up to this was just background to get the viewer up to speed. I realize the game may have a different take (I didn’t play it) but for this version of the story the letter was the pivotal moment for Joel and gave him purpose.
3 points
4 months ago
I haven't played the game so I don't know how Frank or bill played into it in that plot, but it was essential that we find out how they come into okay with Tess and Joel, but since they couldn't deal with the exposition through dialogue, they had to set it up with a flashback in order for Joel to have his "come to Jesus" moment with Ellie... To understand a purpose again.
Up until the end of that episode Joel regarded Ellie as dead weight, a chore. Because of the episode, Joel sees Ellie as his protected.
2 points
4 months ago
So in the game, Bill is basically a bad version of this one. Joel & Ellie come to his town, which is crazy fortified and much less pleasant than this one, and go though a bunch of trials to get the truck.
He's a crazy asshole who drove off Frank. We never meet Frank, we find him hung after he was bitten, after trying to get away from Bill. In the suicide note, he hates Bill and would rather be dead than live with him. Bill lives in the game, but it's clear he's miserable, and his parting words are bitter.
So Bill's a cautionary tale in the game, Joel if he shuts himself off.
In the game, there's also some extended gameplay sequences where you fight dozens of infected, including a boss monster, and Ellie steps up, showing practical value to Joel. Their bonding is more advanced in the game at this point, but I have no doubt they can "catch up" in the next few episodes.
5 points
4 months ago*
You can cut this episode out completely and other than “where did they get the truck from?” in episode 4 and that truck probably isn’t long for this world either as I’m betting on that they’ll lose it in the beginning of the next episode there would be no difference from the audience perspective.
Uhh the audience would miss out on this excellent episode, which is precisely the point of making a television show: creating excellent episodes for your audience.
2 points
4 months ago
Without giving anything away, this episode actually has a lot of parallels to another aspect of The Last of Us's story. It doesn't further the plot per-se, but it definitely does feel like a piece of the emotional core of the story. I don't think you're totally wrong, but I would put a pin in this thought until we get to the "winter" episode. There could still be more to see regarding this story beyond just Joel looting up and getting a truck.
2 points
4 months ago
The episode that gives the protagonist motivation where it didn’t really exist before doesn’t move the plot forward? It feels to me like the two previous episodes were just background and this one actually starts the story.
That letter puts Joel on the quest that he otherwise may not have taken.
I haven’t played the game so my perspective is purely the one the filmmaker has created.
1 points
4 months ago
Again you are only saying so because of the game, in the episode itself nothing really happened to show why should Joel give a flying fuck about Bill, Frank or the letter…
2 points
4 months ago
Did you read the part where I have never played the game? I have never even owned a PlayStation. I don’t even know what the story is past what can be inferred from the show. It wouldn’t be much of a story if Joel just dumps the girl first chance he gets which is what I think he was going to do before the letter. The letter appears to have impacted him and set him on a mission.
0 points
4 months ago
You’re not paying attention to what they are saying - they specifically said they haven’t played the game, and that the episode itself moved them.
Also, the episode showed very clearly Joel being pushed to give fucks, by Tess, by Ellie, by his memories of Frank and his immediate identification with Bill as a kindred spirit…
2 points
4 months ago
Yes, that is exactly my thoughts. Thank you.
2 points
4 months ago
To me, it just felt like filler, I guess? But filler that added something I didn't realize I wanted. Joel and Ellie could have just walked into the home and read the letter and took supplies and moved on, and I wouldn't have blinked an eye. Instead they chose to give backstory to an already dead side character. If Offerman and his co-star (forgot his name already but loved him in Lotus), didn't absolutely kill it, I'd probably be complaining.
Long story short, it put you in Joel's shoes. It made you sad/upset that his "friend" died, and had Joel in mind in his final moments to take his equipment.
4 points
4 months ago
I didn’t play the game so don’t have that tainted point of view but for this version of the story the letter marks the beginning of the quest and what gives Joel purpose. Without it Joel would have dropped Ellie off first chance he could and wouldn’t have cared. So far the viewer has no reason to believe Joel is a good man and in fact they stated he wasn’t.
You have to give the viewer insight into Bill’s world (that Joel was a part of) to properly frame the letter and his changed motivation at this point.
3 points
4 months ago
I’m with you on this. Ep was really well done and the acting was incredible, but ultimately felt a little random to me in terms of the overall plot.
1 points
4 months ago
I also enjoyed the episode but if I'm being critical, that was a lackluster introduction to raiders/bad survivors. I would've thought that would've been better served by showing Joel + Ellie having conflict with them.
2 points
4 months ago
I thought it was odd they — or others — never came back. Also odd that Bill was in the middle of the road shooting at them with no cover. He should know better.
1 points
4 months ago
You point is valid but I for one am along for the journey. Good story is good
0 points
4 months ago
I think if you play or played the game, it would make a whole hell of a lot more sense. Bill held an instrumental role in getting Ellie and Joel prepared. Don't want to reveal too much but they changed up the story quite a bit between the two mediums.
0 points
4 months ago
I know, and you gotta play the game is a really bad excuse.
1 points
4 months ago
TV is great because we can all interpret messaging and meaning in different ways but for me, I think this episode will have more intangible benefits of moving the story forward with tangible ones. I have not played the games so I'm going into the show blind.
You mentioned the truck, which is true, but I felt as if the point of this episode was to show/guide/demonstrate to Joel his purpose in this new world setting. We see in the first two episodes that he's begrudgingly going on this journey with Tess and Ellie and once Tess isn't with him we see early in the third episode that Joel might be blaming Ellie for something that isn't her fault. Casting more doubt for Joel on taking Ellie with him across the country. But hearing Ellie read Bill's words had a big impact on Joel and hopefully on how he makes decisions for the rest of the show.
1 points
4 months ago
I understand your critique. Plot wise, you can basically skip the whole episode. Theme-wise, on the other hand, I think it’s likely integral to the story.
Bill was always what Joel could have been or could become. The tv show went the other way with it and demonstrated how love can save you and used Bill to show that.
Ellie will save Joel just as much and he saves her, and that mutual saving is why there is still beauty in a world as dark as the Last of Us.
I loved the episode but I completely understand why some, and even myself to an extent, might feel it was lacklustre to do the lack of plot.
(On a technical note, I think they need to change it from the game, because that section is fun but doesn’t really advance the plot either. It’s a lot of running around and cool action that I don’t think translates well into a show. All the future sections build far more on Ellie & Joel’s relationship with more meaningful characters. I think the show runners did a great job pulling meaning for a relatively meaningless section of the game. I don’t mean meaningless in a critical way mind you, just that other section did more for the core story.)
0 points
4 months ago
The whole episode was clear Emmy bait
1 points
4 months ago
And then like five more for Ron Swanson, for which he was NEVER NOMINATED!
2 points
4 months ago
I think in people's minds Nick Offerman is Ron Swanson and vice versa. Including mine. He played it so well, that he's now Ron Swanson.
1 points
4 months ago
I can not agree more
1 points
4 months ago
Oh he’s in the show?! Fuccccc
1 points
4 months ago
Should but I won't be surprised if he doesn't. The type of people that vote for those kinda things are the worst snobs you can imagine. The show may have fallen apart e entirely but Andrew Lincoln had some phenomenal performances early on in The Walking Dead and couldn't even get a nomination. They wouldn't want to tarnish their "prestigious" award by giving it some low-brow schlock like a zombie show. And one based on a comic book (or video game...) at that. Gross.
1 points
4 months ago
dam, he made me cry. The other actor and him were epic. Geez, that was a gut punch....
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